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Post by Andy Turnbull on Feb 25, 2010 23:21:40 GMT
Issue 2 was better than issue 1. Hands down the two best TF comics I have read in quite some time.
Well done Boho Toss Art friend, and well done to James as well, bloody dense read and great storytelling too.
Andy
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Feb 25, 2010 23:36:03 GMT
Hmm... I have a hunch on what will happen to the Jumpstarters by the end of this series. I'm probably totally wrong but wouldn't want to ruin it for anyone here if I am...
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Feb 25, 2010 23:57:02 GMT
So do I.
Andy
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Post by Bogatan on Feb 26, 2010 4:31:57 GMT
I have a theory too, I'm not saying as it will probably be horribly wrong.
Andy
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Post by blueshift on Feb 26, 2010 7:17:59 GMT
Will the Jumpstarters get their legs ripped off and no longer be able to jumpstart? My theory is that Impactor is actually a PRETENDER SHELL for uh, um, BUGLY!
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 26, 2010 8:28:50 GMT
Very interested to see you describe it as such, Andy. I did have a feeling that it probably was dense by today's standards, so credit to the guys there. As someone who hasn't bought comics regularly for more than a decade and a half, however, and whose comic reading tends to be of stuff that was produced in the '80s, it seems much less dense to me. Really unfair to judge until all five issues are in, but while it may be that more happens in a single issue of Wreckers than happens in two typical issues of today's TF comics, it also feels to me like a story that would have been told in half as many pages in the old days. It is of course entirely a matter of taste what the optimum word/plot-to-page ratio should be for comics. (Although I keep dropping unsubtle hints as to my preference - Marvel US TF #1-55 - no-one has yet taken the bait and said either that they agree that old-style density was a good thing, or that it was too much.) It also depends on how you look at the trade-off: If given the choice between two 22-page comics containing the Wreckers/Overlord story between them (as might have been the case in the '80s) and a five-issue mini-series telling that story for the same price, of course the latter is preferable since you get more pictures and detail in the story over five issues. But if given the choice between two 22-page comics containing the Wreckers/Overlord story between them PLUS three more 22-page comics containing further ultra-dense stories, and a five-issue mini-series drawing out the Wreckers/Overlord story for the same price... my view might be different. On the other hand, I don't know how much stuff is packed into issues #3-5 yet, do I? On an unrelated point, does anyone know the release date for issue #3? I'll be away one week in March and hope that week won't coincide with the arrival of issue #3 in the shops... Martin
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Post by blueshift on Feb 26, 2010 8:54:48 GMT
I'd argue that Furman's Marvel US issues were even more condensed to be honest.
I like dense comics, I like to feel like I get a good read out of them, since comics are stupidly expensive nowadays. Revelations would fit your criterea very well Martin, in density at least!
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 26, 2010 20:04:03 GMT
I'd argue that Furman's Marvel US issues were even more condensed to be honest. Yeah, some of them are pretty dense too, it's true (with some exceptions such as #75 which went for visual impact instead). But he didn't go in quite so much for cramming a start-to-finish story into 22 pages, and often drew them out over the months (which usually worked OK). And I don't think he ever crammed as much into an issue as the original mini-series or 'The Smelting Pool'. Nevertheless, I now feel inspired to go and re-read the Pretender Classics origin and Matrix Quest to remind myself what they were like... Martin
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Post by blueshift on Feb 26, 2010 20:13:43 GMT
75 was extremely crammed! It was extra size sure, but it was impressive how much was put in there. The coming of Unicron, the return of Thunderwing and the Dark Matrix, the death of Primus, the death of Scorponok, the death of Prime and everyone else, Circuit Breaker, Shockwave, the demons, it is mad how much is in that issue!
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 26, 2010 20:21:02 GMT
75 was extremely crammed! It was extra size sure, but it was impressive how much was put in there. The coming of Unicron, the return of Thunderwing and the Dark Matrix, the death of Primus, the death of Scorponok, the death of Prime and everyone else, Circuit Breaker, Shockwave, the demons, it is mad how much is in that issue! It didn't have anywhere near as many words per page as the average issue though, so a lot of that stuff happened pretty quickly and didn't take long to read. I wouldn't say that lots of characters showing up and lots of characters dying is the same thing as lots happening (and that goes for US #50, #75 and #80, G2 #12 and the end of Time Wars). I don't consider wrapping up a story by having an extended issue where everyone piles in and many people die and then there's one big explosion to finish it off to equate to dense - or deep - storytelling. [Edit: There are other directions a writer can take to finishing every epic with a massive heroic pile-in on the unbeatable foe, with a super-save at the last minute and a massive explosion. E.g. with Unicron. #74 ends with this planet-sized chaos-bringer dropping out of hyperspace next to Cybertron and raising his hand to strike. #75 begins with all the Transformers looking up frozen in horror. The techs rush up and report that Unicron is ten thousand miles from head to foot, and that his hand, which is the size of the United States, is descending upon them at the speed of sound and will hit them in a number of hours and wipe out entire cities when it does. They report that Cybertron's atmosphere is being ripped away and the planet's stability compromised by Unicron's gravitational pull. Prime and Scorponok talk strategy and decide to use Space Bridges to board Unicron and try to take control of him from within. Meanwhile there is a massive evacuation of the cities on the side of Cybertron facing Unicron. The humans have to be put into exo-suits. Select teams of warriors and techs materialise inside Unicron's head and start exploring, combating internal defences, etc., etc. Maybe the story ends with one Transformer reaching Unicron's brain centre, taking out a glass jar containing a Scraplet and removing the lid. Scraplet jumps out and begins to feed and multiply. Unicron's lifeless body collides with Cybertron, wiping out chunks and leaving the no longer spherical planet with a Unicron-shaped continent. Circuit-Breaker initially plans to let the Scraplets wipe out the Transformers, but G.B. Blackrock and Optimus Prime finally convince her not to follow the path of genocide, and she short-circuits the Scraplets before they spread too far. I mean, 'twould be a different way to go. Maybe not the best way, but it only took a few minutes to think it up. I'm sure if people sat down for a few hours and made a list of twenty such possible plot directions, the best one on the list would be pretty good.] So totally off-topic. Martin
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Post by Bogatan on Feb 26, 2010 21:04:08 GMT
Funny, having only ever read it as installments, I never thought of it as a single issue story. I don't know how many issues I thought was there.
Andy
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 28, 2010 11:48:50 GMT
Lurching right back on-topic (hurrah), what do people think about those 'weird brain bullets' then?
The IDW Wreckers have been referred to as using methods that Autobot Command would rather not know about. This rang a bell with me and I wondered what it reminded me of. I realised it was 'The Dark Knight', which I had recently watched again. So, I thought, are the Wreckers to Autobot Command what the Batman is to Gothan City Police Force, in operating outside the established rules?
My answer... is no. Because Batman won't kill - not even the Joker. The law may execute criminals, but Batman won't.
On the other hand, the Wreckers have deliberately designed weapons for themselves that kill rather than simply incapacitate. Normal TF weapons blow up the enemy's body but leave the brain with the possibility of being re-housed.
It struck me in the old comics, that on the one hand Optimus and co. built Omega Supreme in such a way that he would destroy bodies but not brains, and went out of their way to preserve fallen enemies, either keeping them behind energy bars or, if blown up, in cold storage, on the other hand the Wreckers sought to kill the ten deadliest Deceps in Operation: Volcano, and execute Prime himself when they thought he was an impostor and had him helpless. Now we have Wreckers who want every shot they fire to take a life.
Will Pyro, who appears to worship Optimus Prime's teachings, be able to go along with actions so contrary to his code of ethics?
Should we be sympathising with the Wreckers at all? What ideals are they fighting for? Are they any better than the majority of their enemies?
Discuss.
Martin
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2010 11:50:21 GMT
I intend to sit down and read the first two issues of this today.
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Feb 28, 2010 12:15:26 GMT
Will Pyro, who appears to worship Optimus Prime's teachings, be able to go along with actions so contrary to his code of ethics? That's a good question re Pyro. That said, IDW Optimus not only is fine with killing in battle, he's been on ops with the Wreckers and told them what to do.
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chrisl
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Post by chrisl on Feb 28, 2010 12:22:32 GMT
I have not been this excited by a TF comic since I first read CG2 #16 15 years ago. Absolutely amazing. Everything about this issue is perfect from the snappy dialogue to the art to the pacing to the big reveal. I didn't realise I had actually read 22 pages of comic when I finished it as I wanted more. Really looking forward to #3, and I think I might buy the Trade AS WELL as the individual issues.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 28, 2010 12:30:50 GMT
Will Pyro, who appears to worship Optimus Prime's teachings, be able to go along with actions so contrary to his code of ethics? That's a good question re Pyro. That said, IDW Optimus not only is fine with killing in battle, he's been on ops with the Wreckers and told them what to do. Oh! That's quite a departure (though it fits with his live-action movie portrayal... and the G2 comic). So who amongst IDW's Autobots _does_ maintain the ethical standards of Marvel's Ark crew? In Marvel it kind of made sense to me that those who had endured an eternity of persecution by Straxus would be brought down to the Decepticons' level, while those who slept through it on Earth would be far less jaded and retain more of their peace-time ideals. But it was always Optimus who insisted on mercy and using violence as a last resort. Just re-read Nick's half of All Hail Megatron #15. Now _that_ is my optimum level of words and plot delivery per page. Spot on. If only the other story had matched the density of the first 11 pages, that comic really would have rivalled any Marvel TF comic in my estimation. Be great if one of the remaining three Wreckers issues is as word-dense and plot-dense as that 11-page Prowl/Springer/Kup story. Martin
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Post by Bogatan on Feb 28, 2010 13:11:47 GMT
As I remember it Rachet would probably the closest in behaviour to the Marvel Run.
Andy
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2010 14:24:00 GMT
I look forward to getting this series as a TPB in a few months time (end of August according to Amazon) though I might end up buying the single issues as well just because its a great series
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Post by jameso on Feb 28, 2010 14:28:43 GMT
Martin your issue 75 'rewrite' is excellent.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 28, 2010 15:59:49 GMT
How is the IDW Autobots' ethical code when it comes to humans?
I mean, compared to back in the day when Swoop spared Professor Morris after being possessed by him, when a gestalt made up of the Cybertron Seven and Aerialbots put its hand between its sworn enemy and captor, Circuit-Breaker, and the Battlechargers' weapons fire, when Backstreet and the Triggerbots called for the Road-Jammers to get inside them so as to save them from the Decepticon Headmasters when their jamming devices stopped working, when Blaster blew his cover to stop Swindle gunning down Big Steve the used car dealer, despite him having betrayed them to RAAT, etc.?
Do the Autobots of today still have such a code of honour as to risk their own lives to save the lives of undeserving enemy humans?
Martin
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Feb 28, 2010 19:01:19 GMT
How is the IDW Autobots' ethical code when it comes to humans? They try to defend them (though wider strategic issues may take priority) and avoid making too much of an impact, but if the humans are aggressively hostile they don't mess around.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Feb 28, 2010 19:37:23 GMT
I wouldn't say Omega Supreme was designed for none fatal engagement of enemies - one of his arms is a dedicated plasma cannon! Hardly something designed to simply incapacitate targets.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 28, 2010 19:40:00 GMT
Nevertheless, that's the effect it had - it destroyed the bodies of Frenzy and Rumble without killing them. Even at the end of the same issue they admitted as much. The Autobots could have finished off the six Deceps that Omega destroyed, but they didn't - they put them in cold storage and reconstructed them. ( Battles between Transformers were, as a rule, non-fatal in the Marvel US TF comics.) Exactly the opposite of the Wreckers' 'weird brain bullets' - or Impactor harpooning Shrapnel through the forehead. Martin
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2010 22:09:44 GMT
What about Starscream's killing spree in the Underbase Saga or Unicron eating half of Cybertron?
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Rich
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Post by Rich on Feb 28, 2010 22:10:21 GMT
I might be being cynical, but aren’t the brain mod bullets just Nick and James injecting a much-needed sense of jeopardy into TF comics? But yeah, it does seem that when the Wreckers are involved there's no messing about.
Had brain mods been mentioned up to this point in IDW or had all the talk been of sparks?
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Mar 1, 2010 7:11:00 GMT
What about Starscream's killing spree in the Underbase Saga or Unicron eating half of Cybertron? When I said battles between Transformers, I meant battles with one Transformer using its external weaponry on another Transformer. You can kill a Transformer by doing more serious things to it, like dropping it into a Smelting Pool or off a Space Bridge, or putting explosives _inside_ its body, or infecting it with Scraplets. But I don't think any Transformer ever died in the US comic from weapons fire. Starscream didn't kill anyone in the Underbase saga. Optimus Prime explained two issues later that he simply burnt out millions of their microchips, and if Cloudburst and Landmine could get some replacement chips they could all be repaired. As it is, some were repaired by using Pretender shells and others with Nucleon. As for Unicron, well, they seemed to reckon that he did kill some Transformers, such as Optimus Prime. Not sure what he died of exactly though, since his brain module appeared to be intact when he spoke his last words to Prowl. (Why couldn't Prowl simply remove his brain module like I.I.I. did with the Throttlebots and put it in a new body?) But it was never made clear how many of the other robots Unicron destroyed were actually irreparable as a result (i.e. suffering brain module destruction). Lots of them appeared to be partially intact at the start of issue #76. A much scarier Unicron was the one in the 1986 comic adaptation of the animated movie, as he had some lethal mist thing that disintegrated the planet Lithone and its inhabitants. There was no fighting that. Damn it, off-topic again. What's Ironfist's favourite music? Wreck'n'roll! Martin
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Post by skillex on Mar 1, 2010 21:33:28 GMT
What ideals are they fighting for? Are they any better than the majority of their enemies? In all fairness, I think this is a question which has plagued the Autobots of many incarnations of Transformers for decades, from Grimlock's "It about genetics!" speech to Prowl right after the Unicron War all the way up to even IDW's Poochie Drift side-swapping carry on. Before AHM arrived, I have to say I liked the less black-and-white nature of things which allowed us to question this (such as Optimus Prime leaving Earth to fend for itself to deal with the bigger picture).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2010 22:33:08 GMT
I've just read the first two issues of this comic and I have to say its easily the best TF comic IDW have produced in a long while. The nods to UK fans are amusing and I chuckled when they mentioned the Operation: Volcano story of Marvel UK in a line. Only Nick Roche coul;d get away with something like that.
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Post by Mark_Stevenson on Mar 2, 2010 20:18:58 GMT
I think I'll save my detailed comments for an end-of-series uber-review, but I will say that #2 outdoes #1 and frankly leaves the last decade's worth of TF comics choking on its dust. Well done chaps.
Mx
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Post by dinogrrl on Mar 3, 2010 23:59:14 GMT
I'll agree that #2 does hold together more succinctly than #1, and there's bucketloads more wonderful characterisation of the new Wreckers and also Impactor. I'm liking this guy and am looking forward to finding out what he did to get put away. Still not really feeling Twin Twist and Top Spin, but that might change as they become less marginal in the story. Loved the Kup storytelling bit and Magnus' response.
Also - continuity note inside the cover - THANK YOU.
Niggle: still not liking some of your panels of Verity. Some are just brill, but in others her expressions look goofy, like the panel where Kup's finishing his story to her. The exaggerated expressions work better on the robots than they humans, at least to my eye. Minor quibble though.
Downside: I see the Perceptor character continues his devolution into kill crazy gunslinger. Man what a shame. Eh, I've largely accepted the science character died back in AHM anyway, but still. That line from him in the landing pod was seriously silly and not in a giggle inducing fashion. Don't overcheese the cheese, man.
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