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Post by The Doctor on Oct 30, 2012 19:13:14 GMT
Something that has driven me insane with rage since a very early age is folk's utterly ludicrous insistence on calling their evening meal 'tea'. I twitch whenever I hear this.
Tea is a liquid refreshment made with water and dead plant leaves. It is not a meal. This nonsense needs to stop.
-Ralph
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Post by Shockprowl on Oct 30, 2012 20:33:03 GMT
No. No no. Sorry, Doc', my old cyber chumb. But 'tea' does indeed, as you feared, refer to the evening meal. Dinner is something one 'goes out to'.
'Dinner' is a sauce (ha, get it, sauce?) of constant argument here in the lovely and often naked Shockprowl house-hold. Mrs Shockers speaks constantly of lunch as 'Dinner'! What madness is this?! Lunch is lunch not, 'dinner'! Damn it!!!
And Tea is Tea!!!!!
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Post by Marc Graham on Oct 30, 2012 20:37:44 GMT
Dinner is Dinner.
Tea is a cuppa. Some people have an early meal or a late lunch and call it tea, as long as its not used to substitute for dinner I let them live....
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Post by Shockprowl on Oct 30, 2012 20:49:14 GMT
Breakfast. Lunch. Tea. Supper. (with the option of a elevensisis if one is having a hard start).
Dinner out if you're feeling posh.
Ahhh thankyou! *adjusts bowtie and sips cognac*
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Oct 30, 2012 21:06:25 GMT
I invite you to join me for tea, Burns. But... what tea?
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 30, 2012 21:08:26 GMT
Tea is not the correct name for a meal! No matter the time of day!
-Ralph
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Post by Jim on Oct 31, 2012 11:38:51 GMT
When I were a lad in t'north we had dinner during the day and tea in the evening and we were bloody grateful for both.</derbyshire-accent>
Since escaping down south for university I'm a lunch and dinner man.
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Post by jameso on Oct 31, 2012 12:00:59 GMT
Yeah, it's only tea in the evening if you've already had a main dinner during the daytime. If you're calling your main meal of the day tea, then no.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Oct 31, 2012 12:10:56 GMT
"You have arrived at a propitious moment, considered to be your country's one indisputable contribution to Western Civilization: Afternoon tea. May I press you to a cucumber sandwich?" - Hugo Drax, Moonraker
You must be able to have dinner at lunchtime, else where do dinner ladies and school dinners come from? It was always a choice between packed lunches (cold) and school dinners (hot).
In evenings we had supper.
Martin
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Post by jameso on Oct 31, 2012 12:12:05 GMT
Supper is the before bed snack, about 8pm.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Oct 31, 2012 12:14:03 GMT
Pippin: "What about breakfast?"
Strider: "You've already had it."
Pippin: "We've had one, yes. What about second breakfast?"
Merry: "Don't think he knows about second breakfast, Pip."
Pippin: "What about elevensies? Luncheon? Afternoon tea? Dinner? Supper? He knows about them, don't he?"
Martin
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Post by Jim on Oct 31, 2012 12:26:31 GMT
What we called supper we tended to have later in the evening than tea and it was usually a bit lighter.
Was always a packed lunch person, eating my cheese and onion sarny and bacon crisps down by the long-jump sandpit, in spite of my grandma being chief dinner lady!
(I sometimes think of the women in the work canteen as dinner ladies, there's something very dinner-ladyish about some of them)
-Jim
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Post by Stomski on Oct 31, 2012 14:10:52 GMT
"(afternoon) tea" is not a meal... It is simply refreshments, an afternoon elevenses as it were. Traditionally tea with small cakes/petit fours and maybe savoury items. Tea may even be taken for elevenses if one chooses.
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 31, 2012 19:24:14 GMT
Tea cannot be eaten!!!! It is a drink!!!!! DICTIONARIES FOR LIFE!!!!
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Oct 31, 2012 19:57:34 GMT
No tea for you tonight!
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Post by Marc Graham on Oct 31, 2012 20:10:57 GMT
Sometimes Ralph a word can have more than one meaning or over time the word changes meaning subtly - of course I know you already know that so I'll stop winding you up.
I tend to avoid the term - Breakfast, Lunch, dinner are main meals - late night its supper, but I'd consider 3pm at work to be a "tea break" whether I have tea, water, chocolate or a piece of fruit - its "tea-time" if you will.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Nov 1, 2012 9:12:31 GMT
Tea cannot be eaten!!!! It is a drink!!!!! DICTIONARIES FOR LIFE!!!! -Ralph Shorter Oxford English Dictionary: tea /0ti:/ noun. M17. [ORIGIN Prob. from Dutch tee (now thee) from Chinese (Min) te, (Mandarin) chá (cf. char noun²).] 1 The dried leaves of the plant Camellia sinensis (see sense 2); the drink made by infusing these leaves in hot (boiling) water. Also (with specifying word), a particular variety or blend of such leaves. M17. ▸ b A drink of tea. E20. A. Ghosh His digestion was…ruined by the hard-boiled tea…drunk at roadside stalls. China tea, green tea, gunpowder tea, Indian tea, lapsang souchong tea, etc. cup of tea: see cup noun 1. not for all the tea in China colloq. (orig. Austral.) not for anything, not at any price. rich tea (biscuit) a semi-sweet biscuit. Russian tea: see Russian adjective. tea and sympathy colloq. hospitality and consolation offered to a distressed person. 2 The plant from which tea is obtained, Camellia sinensis (family Theaceae), a shrub or tree with white flowers and oval evergreen leaves, long cultivated in China and now also in Japan, India, Kenya, and elsewhere. M17. 3 Usu. with specifying word. An infusion made in the same way as tea from the leaves, flowers, etc., of various other plants or from any other substance; a drink of such an infusion; (the leaves of) any of the plants from which such an infusion can be made. M17. beef tea, camomile tea, Jersey tea, Labrador tea, Mexican tea, Oswego tea, sassafras tea, etc. 4 ▸ a Alcoholic liquor. slang. L17. ▸ b Marijuana; spec. marijuana brewed in hot water to make a drink. slang (orig. US). M20. 5 A meal or social gathering at which tea is served. Now esp. (a) a light afternoon meal, usu. consisting of tea, cakes, sandwiches, etc. (also more fully afternoon tea, five o'clock tea); (b) (in parts of the UK, and in Australia and NZ) a main meal in the evening that usually includes a cooked dish, bread and butter, and tea (also more fully high tea). M18.
P. P. Read Gail had taken Lucy…to tea with some friends.
take tea with slang have dealings with, associate with; esp. deal with in a hostile manner.6 ellipt. A tea rose. M19. hybrid tea: see hybrid adjective. Martin
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Post by Stomski on Nov 1, 2012 10:23:47 GMT
I think you have found the truth there Martin - "in parts of the UK". I guess these are the parts without an educational system.
I'm all for language evolving, but when it occurs due to laziness and lack of education it's detrimental.
The same applies to people swearing where upon they do it not because they want to display their extreme emotions, but simply because they don't want to take the time to search their vocabulary for a more suitable adjective or adverb; of which there are certainly many.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Nov 1, 2012 11:37:40 GMT
If I want to read asinine and offensive generalisations I will read the Daily Mail. So we'll have no more of that.
Dinner and Tea were interchangeable growing up, and indeed even now I will use both and I consider myself neither lazy nor suffering from lack of education.
Andy
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Post by Stomski on Nov 1, 2012 13:31:53 GMT
I apologise. My sensationalist wording was used to illustrate a general point about language changes and their merits rather than being specific about the use of the word tea of which you have taken offence.
I believe there are socio-economic groups that use the English language in a fashion that does not benefit society's progression, but instead benefits their immediate need or they are not aware of an alternative (re. education).
Examining this specific tea case: I think that there should be a distinction between the words' meaning such that we can communicate our meal expectations efficiently. If there is this ambiguity, should we arrange a meeting for tea, I shall not know without further clarification whether to expect tea and treats or a full meal.
If these words were interchangeable for you, I wonder what it is that would make you choose to say tea instead of supper on a specific occasion? Perhaps it as an unconscious choice.
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Post by Jim on Nov 1, 2012 15:19:15 GMT
I think language differences like that are part of life's rich tapestry, keeping things interesting! Taken to it's logical conclusion, efficient communication of meaning will probably be wi-fi brain implants and we'll be a step short of becoming the Borg.
There was a nice R4 series on language and dialect in the UK a few years ago and I was delighted to learn that the town I grew up in is one of only a handful (two, possibly) known to use the word "twitchell" to mean an alley / passage between buildings for pedestrians. We also used "cob" for bread roll, and you don't have to go far from Nottingham for that word to be considered deeply offensive.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Nov 1, 2012 15:20:24 GMT
Ah you can't beat a crusty cob! (the roll of course)
Andy
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Post by Stomski on Nov 1, 2012 17:06:09 GMT
I wonder where folks stand on people's use of their, there and they're?
To me misusing these is akin to the tea/supper debate. Whilst tea's additional dictionary meaning may allow its use to reference an evening meal, this may only be because of years of (mis)use leading to the extra definition being added?
Surely following this pattern it's just a matter of time before the dictionary definitions of there and its similarly spelt counterparts all cross reference each other?
Eats, shoots and leaves? That panda sure does...
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Nov 1, 2012 17:13:39 GMT
Not the same thing at all.
Andy
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Post by Jim on Nov 1, 2012 17:13:57 GMT
I absolutely cringe at misuse of those, but I'm not sure it's quite the same as it's not about regional / cultural variation in the meaning of a word, which may have come about for legitimate historical reasons - it's just grammatically wrong.
That said, I used to feel that way about "innit" but it got so widespread I've just taken it as an evolution of the language. Doubt I'll ever use it myself, though.
-Jim
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Nov 1, 2012 17:18:01 GMT
Widespread in England/Wales - it's not really made much of a dent up here.
We have load of our own loathesome affectations. Fife likes the word neebur (neighbour) to use at the end of a sentence to refer to the person you are talking to, or to refer to a friend who isn't there. It makes my knuckles itch when I hear people say it.
Andy
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Post by legios on Nov 1, 2012 20:26:37 GMT
I vote "depends". The way that I was brought up "dinner" was the main cooked meal of the day - whether that happened around noon or whether it was the evening meal. "Tea" meanwhile was a light meal of sandwiches, cake, and the like. (If the noonish meal was a light meal then this was termed "lunch" rather than "dinner").
But that was just down to the particular area of England that my parents came from. The terms were used differently by local follks in wales, and by my father's family who came from a different part of England - and used in a different way again by folk in Stirling...
(But then, there were a few linguistic differences that threw me when I came to Scotland. It took me ages to get au fait with the thought that "messages" meant shopping, not telegrams)
Karl
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Post by Stomski on Nov 2, 2012 10:08:55 GMT
Can you explain why it isn't the same thing? Some people are brought up in a culture where these words are interchangeable despite different meanings. The fact that they are similar in spelling is irrelevant. Surely in time widespread misuse could cause these to be accepted dictionary spellings of all three.
The same thing has happened in various cultural pockets for the word tea and now we're at a point of confusion and this is bad thing!
The reason language started was because prehistoric man no doubt found grunting to communicate to each other confusing as many grunts sounded too much the same. No doubt prehistoric woman prepared a light snack and beverage meal for around 4pm on her partners request for "Grngnggng" as the mammoth hunting party would be coming back. Unfortunately, he actually said "Grngngnngg" meaning he wanted a full evening meal waiting for them at around 7pm. He bludgeoned her to death as penance and fed her to a sabre tooth tiger. This is not something I want on my conscience.
English is crappy irregular language anyway, where's my Esperanto dictionary?
Bonvolu povus vin alvokos la halo porter, ŝajnas esti rano en mia bideo!!!
And I think we all know what that means!
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Post by Dave on Nov 2, 2012 10:46:00 GMT
There's probably a long and detailed reason why some people refer to different meals as dinner, but to keep things short, they just do and they know what they mean when they say it. "There", "their" and "they're" are only misused in print - unknowingly (see also: "to" and "too"), it's not like there are parts of the country where someone will say "wow look at that exceptionally tall larch over they're". Bonvolu povus vin alvokos la halo porter, ŝajnas esti rano en mia bideo!!!And I think we all know what that means! My first thought was the bucket and spade line, but the last word should have tipped me off.
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Post by Stomski on Nov 2, 2012 11:17:59 GMT
Where's the difference?
There and they're have quite different pronunciations when verbalised too.
A written communication of invite to a tea meeting has the same possibility for confusion as when spoken.
My main worry is that people are too naive to appreciate that a persons language may differ and alter their language such that they may communicate effectively. Instead they continue with their own vocabulary which may not be appropriate. I guess this is due to my engineering background where technical documents must be written in a way to be very clear and specific.
Some people even go abroad and expect other countries to speak their own language! This tea/supper debate is a microcosm of this same problem. (Although given the prominence of English being taught in foreign schools as a second language, I can see how this assumption may have some validity, but some people act as to expect fluency from all).
As long as when the time comes that you meet the Queen and she invites you for tea you understand that she means you'll be getting a beverage, perhaps some cucumber sandwiches and cake in late afternoon, then there's not actually a problem if you use it with your Ma and Pa to mean something different.
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