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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 17:53:21 GMT
Lots to talk about this week. Let's get the tech-specs out of the way with an in-depth comparison of these four characters' trends over time.
| Strength | Intelligence | Speed | Endurance | Rank | Courage | Firepower | Skill | Original Bumblebee | 2 | 8 | 4 | 7 | 7 | 10 | 1 | 7
| Original Goldbug
| 9!!! | 8 | 4 | 8 | 8 | 10 | 1 | 7 | Legend/Pretender Bumblebee
| 7 | 8 | 4 | 8 | 8 | 10 | 6 | 7 | Classic Goldbug
| 9!!! | 8 | 4 | 8 | 8 | 9 | 2 | 7 | Action Master Bumblebee | 3 | 8 | 5 | 7 | 9 | 10 | 5 | 10!!! | Original Grimlock
| 10
| 7 | 3 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 8 | 10 | Legend/Pretender Grimlock
| 10 | 4!!! | 3 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 8 | 9 | Classic Grimlock
| 10
| 8 | 6!!! | 9 | 10 | 3!!! | 7 | 10 | Action Master Grimlock
| 9
| 7 | 2 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 8 | 9 | Original/Classic Jazz | 5 | 9 | 7 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 5 | 10 | Legend/Pretender Jazz
| 5 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 6!!! | 9 | 7 | 10 | Action Master Jazz
| 5 | 9 | 4!!! | 7 | 8 | 9 | 6 | 10 | Original Starscream
| 7 | 7 | 9 | 7 | 5 | 8 | 7 | 7 | Skywarp | 7 | 9 | 10 | 7 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 8 | Legend/Pretender Starscream
| 7 | 9 | 8 | 7 | 9 | 9 | 8 | 8 | Action Master Starscream
| 10!!! | 9 | 9 | 8 | 5!!! | 8 | 7 | 7 |
Oddly the Legends' tech-spec ratings are identical to those of the Pretender Classics, as if the Pretender shell counts for nothing. (Legends are Pretender Classics packaged without the shell.) Apart from Goldbug's ridiculous strength rating, Bumblebee's tech-specs are fairly sensible. Constant intelligence, gradually increasing rank over time. Classic Goldbug had a slight fall in courage, wonder what caused that. Nucleon apparently bestowed ninja skills on him, boosting him from skill 7 to skill 10 as an Action Master. Action Master Grimlock is weaker than all the other Grimlocks! And his intelligence is all over the place. Classic Grimlock has somehow doubled his speed and has rank 10 reflecting his role as Earthforce Commander. But he's down to courage 3!!! Perhaps due to loss of confidence when his endurance and firepower dropped by one point. Can't make up his mind whether his skill is 9 or 10. Pretender Jazz was evidently a naughty boy as he got busted down to rank 6, but returned to rank 8 as a Classic. Action Master Jazz was slow. Turbo Board not as fast as Porsche, apparently. His other ratings are fairly constant throughout G1. Ignore original Starscream's ratings, we accept they got swapped with Skywarp's, so use those instead. Pretender Starscream lost some of the original's super-speed, while Action Master Starscream is stronger than Action Master Grimlock! But has been busted down to rank 5 - a final much-deserved reckoning for all his treachery, no doubt. Nucleon gave Starscream an extra endurance point as well as super-strength but reduced his courage, firepower and skill. Martin
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 18:05:00 GMT
Perhaps Hasbro actually realised which toy in each sub group was the weakest (Swoop, Nightbeat, Bludgeon) and forced Simon to give them more character and exposition as that would help even them out with the others in the assortment. How's that theory holding up when applied to Crossblades, Vroom and Thunderwing? In-story, the Pretenders all being white and male can be explained because they were created by a crew of Headmasters and Targetmasters who were all white and male. We know there's at least one black Nebulan, but the planet as a whole doesn't appear to have the ethnic diversity of Earth. (In the Grand Moff Martinverse Jazz switches colour when he upgrades to become a shrinking Pretender.) I got Pretender Grimlock in a swap with my next-door neighbour. Looked rubbish alongside my original Grimlock. Tiny by comparison, no sword, and using his detachable backside as a handgun. Not good. Don't like Bumblebee because he doesn't look like the original. I think we voted and agreed that his original toy face was better than his later comic/cartoon face. So I must decide who to vote for between Jazz and Starscream. Martin
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 17, 2020 18:29:58 GMT
I'm not sure I have accepted that Starscream's tech specs are someone else's.
And I believe the catalogue clearly offers definite proof that guns can be swapped between robots officially.
While I would like human Pretender shells to be more representative I'm not sure it makes any more sense to say that their characters should be this or that colour than it is to ascribe gender to them.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 18:34:19 GMT
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Post by Bogatan on Jan 17, 2020 18:36:36 GMT
Some odd prototype guns here. Jazz's robot is holding Sludge's, BB's shell a modified PM Op Riffle. I think Starscream has a Snaptrap gun and BB's robot a black Nautilator gun. Did they reverse Jazzs bonnet so the head was visible? Can the toy do that or is this another odd protype photo?
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 18:39:26 GMT
I'm not sure I have accepted that Starscream's tech specs are someone else's. It's either that or Warrior Skywarp outranks Air Commander Starscream and 1500 mph is faster than Mach 2.8. Take your pick. Martin
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 18:44:31 GMT
Martin
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 18:53:30 GMT
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Post by Bogatan on Jan 17, 2020 18:55:42 GMT
I'm very fond of these guys as they were my first chance to get a Jazz, Starscream and Bumblebee. At the time Bumblebee was my favourite character but Jazz increasingly appealed making these a big deal. Its also the only set of Pretenders I completed. Making me partly responsible for Hasbros increasing obsession with remaking the 84-86 characters. Sorry.
I really dont know which toy I prefer though. The shells are all good. Bees probably the most generic, but I like them all. Vehicles/Dino modes are all pretty decent too unlike most every other pretender. Robot modes generally look a lot less cool than a lot of other pretender robot modes. Grimlock pulls of the robot mode pretty well actually, but is also probably the weakest in alt mode. Bee begins the ongoing trend of failing to capture the awesomeness of the original minibot robot mode. And Jazz cant see over his chest. And Starscreams never quite wowed me despite probably the least issues in either mode.
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Post by Bogatan on Jan 17, 2020 18:57:09 GMT
You know what. I have a theory that Pretender Starscream is responsible for Actionmaster Thundercrackers existence so hes got to get my vote.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 19:02:52 GMT
Going with Starscream. Don't like Jazz with plastic wheels and no door-wings or overhead flamethrower in robot mode. I think Starscream's inner robot/jet is more respectful of the original than any of the other three.
Martin
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 17, 2020 19:07:27 GMT
I'm very fond of these guys as they were my first chance to get a Jazz, Starscream and Bumblebee. At the time Bumblebee was my favourite character but Jazz increasingly appealed making these a big deal. Its also the only set of Pretenders I completed. Making me partly responsible for Hasbros increasing obsession with remaking the 84-86 characters. Sorry. Yes, these are the first point Hasbro really taps into the TF back catalogue en masse. There's been Goldbug, and PM Op but they were on their own, this is an entire group. They'll go even bigger on the idea again the next year, when these 4 will be back again, and all 4 feature again in G2.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 17, 2020 19:08:38 GMT
Perhaps Hasbro actually realised which toy in each sub group was the weakest (Swoop, Nightbeat, Bludgeon) and forced Simon to give them more character and exposition as that would help even them out with the others in the assortment. How's that theory holding up when applied to Crossblades, Vroom and Thunderwing? Very well, as we'll see shortly.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 17, 2020 19:12:21 GMT
BB is the only one of these that feels like it might be an improvement over the original as a toy. Against that he has Cliffjumper's head and striped on his bonnet.
Jazz and Starscream have never floated my boat.
I had Grimlock's robot, acquired from a jumble sale. I acquired a tail somewhere too. The handle on it annoys me, he can't hold it straight. It's not as good as the original Grimlock, but it's got something.
Grimlock for me.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 19:16:30 GMT
Lucky for Hasbro that Ratchet took three fan-favourite characters to Cybertron to revive as Pretenders, rather than three other random Autobots, say, Searchlight, Gears and Slingshot.
Do you agree with Hasbro's choices for the four Classic/Legend characters to bring back in Pretender form?
I was wondering about Jazz. I know that right at the start in 1984 he was supposed to be the star of the Autobot cars, with his prominence in 'Man of Iron', the Ladybird and Adventure Game books, the Sunbow pilot and opening music, and the magazine toy ads. But he fizzled out a bit as a character. Ironhide displaced him as second-in-command in the cartoon after the pilot, and Prowl in the comics after 'Man of Iron'. Was he ever really as popular as Hasbro intended him to be when they launched TFs?
He never really shone in the comics after being revived as a Pretender. Again, Prowl had much more prominence in Earthforce and the later US issues.
Do you think they misjudged his character value when they included him alongside Bumblebee, Grimlock and Starscream? Would Soundwave or Prowl have been a better choice?
Martin
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 17, 2020 19:29:47 GMT
Lucky for Hasbro that Ratchet took three fan-favourite characters to Cybertron to revive as Pretenders, rather than three other random Autobots, say, Searchlight, Gears and Slingshot. Do you agree with Hasbro's choices for the four Classic/Legend characters to bring back in Pretender form? Jazz's inclusion is purely on cartoon form, which I suspect is the main driving force here. This is the only Humanoid Pretender assortment not to be done as a three: were there originally two other Decepticons in it?
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 17, 2020 19:31:11 GMT
You know what. I have a theory that Pretender Starscream is responsible for Actionmaster Thundercrackers existence so hes got to get my vote. go on....
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 17, 2020 19:34:51 GMT
This is the only Humanoid Pretender assortment not to be done as a three: were there originally two other Decepticons in it? They could have just done Starscream in three colours and called the other two Skywarp and Thundercracker. But I'd have liked to see a Catilla-style Pretender Beast of Ravage! Martin
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Post by The Huff on Jan 17, 2020 22:50:36 GMT
How's that theory holding up when applied to Crossblades, Vroom and Thunderwing? Very well, as we'll see shortly. In advance, Vroom is excellent! He is like the Ram Man of the Transformers Universe!
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Post by Bogatan on Jan 18, 2020 16:46:17 GMT
You know what. I have a theory that Pretender Starscream is responsible for Actionmaster Thundercrackers existence so hes got to get my vote. go on.... I'm trying to work it out, if my theory at least makes sense I want to see if its worth including in Matts fanzine.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 18, 2020 17:15:00 GMT
Would I be right in saying that after the Pretender Classics origin story, Starscream's shell just appeared in one token black & white story and was then never seen again?
And that the three Autobots' shells never appeared again after Matrix Quest?
Martin
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 23, 2020 8:11:21 GMT
Starscream winning!
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Jim
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Post by Jim on Jan 23, 2020 11:37:56 GMT
Good! The only one of these I have direct experience of is Grimlock, and he's possibly my least favourite childhood Transformer. Of the remainder, Starscream edges it over Bumblebee for me.
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Post by Jim on Jan 23, 2020 11:59:57 GMT
Do you think they misjudged his character value when they included him alongside Bumblebee, Grimlock and Starscream? Would Soundwave or Prowl have been a better choice? I would have loved to see *more* Classic Pretenders, but at the same time I do see Jazz as being genuinely iconic and worthy of inclusion. I think there's a tendency in the online community to favour canonical fictional use, especially the comics and/or cartoon (though Ladybird is high up on my list) as for a lot of us that's why we stayed fans, but I still strongly remember being in the playground as a kid and everyone wanting to be Jazz when we played Transformers and loving that transformation he did in the cartoon. It reminds me of when MP Sideswipe was announced and the reaction online (at least among the vocal part of the online community) was "BuT hE's a NoBodY"-whining, whereas all I could think was that he was one of the most iconic designs of the original Transformers, using an iconic car of the period, well-used on merchandise even if he wasn't in the comics / cartoon. For me Jazz falls a bit into that category, with the edge of having had some memorable fictional appearances even if they weren't extensive.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 23, 2020 16:26:59 GMT
Oh absolutely. There is definitely something iconic about Jazz. The question was just, if there are a maximum of four slots, should he get one of them - or should he have been more like 6th or 7th on Hasbro's shortlist, after the likes of Prowl and Soundwave.
Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 23, 2020 17:30:38 GMT
Should have been Pretender SHOCKWAVE.
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jan 23, 2020 18:53:37 GMT
Is 1989 the only year of 'G1' that didn't have any new toys in the west with rank 10?
1984 - Optimus Prime and Megatron 1985 - Jetfire 1986 - Hot Rod and Rodimus Prime 1987 - Fortress Maximus 1988 - Powermaster Optimus Prime
By my reckoning, Countdown and Grimlock are joint highest ranking Autobots this year with rank 9, while Roadblock, Skystalker and Starscream form a triumvirate of rank 9s commanding this year's Decepticons.
Starscream's function is now Aerospace Commander, which means essentially the same thing as his previous Air Commander. Oddly, Countdown's function is also Aerospace Commander, although flying in the air isn't really his thing - he operates in space. Skystalker (Interstellar Assault) is surely his opposite number, not Starscream.
Roadblock is Ground Forces Commander, although I believe one of his shells does have a flight mode.
Poor Grimlock has lost his Dinobots, so he's now simply 'Lieutenant Commander', a generic rank 9 function also held by Sky Lynx.
Martin
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Post by Shockprowl on Jan 23, 2020 21:11:44 GMT
Oh absolutely. There is definitely something iconic about Jazz. The question was just, if there are a maximum of four slots, should he get one of them - or should he have been more like 6th or 7th on Hasbro's shortlist, after the likes of Prowl and Soundwave. Martin I've thought long and hard about this. And I think Jazz is a MOST worthy choice. An esthetically pleasing quintessential bonnet-former, great character, iconic, rememorable, yes JAZZ is a good choice. THE FIRST CHOICE. Pretender Prowl? Pretender Wheeljack? Pretender Shockwave, Thundercracker, Skywarp...?!?! Yes... that would have been nice... Edit: Actually went with Bumblebee in the end, surprising myself, 'cos although I like Bumblebee as a character, his toys are never what I instinctively go for. But I think this little version really looks the part.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 24, 2020 8:36:03 GMT
Starscream Wins!
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 24, 2020 8:41:43 GMT
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