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Post by The Doctor on Jul 15, 2008 9:00:59 GMT
Yes, but could he survive...
AFTERDEATH!
-Ralph
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Post by grahamthomson on Jul 15, 2008 9:16:31 GMT
Ooh!
I love this story!*
*No, really!
(In fact, I have even penned a short story sequel to it for Hubris called "Murder on the Dashboard" which I hope to share with you soon.)
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 15, 2008 9:40:45 GMT
I too have a fondness for this tale and have a wee tale following on from it's awesomeness.
Andy
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Post by grahamthomson on Jul 15, 2008 9:45:14 GMT
We should start a club.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 15, 2008 9:54:31 GMT
Indeed, we should go round doing talks - The Afterdeath After Dinner Club.
Andy
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Post by grahamthomson on Jul 15, 2008 9:59:39 GMT
The Afterdeath aftermath after dinner and after afters. With After Eights.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 15, 2008 10:24:13 GMT
After all, it does make sense!
Andy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2008 16:25:23 GMT
It's a good story but it is let down by the bits in it that stretches the imagination. Optimus Prime's personality put onto a tiny floppy disk and Prime declaring that he has lost the game and must be destroyed because he killed a few CG characters instead of saving them.
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 16, 2008 13:34:19 GMT
I have a big soft spot for Afterdeath too.
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 16, 2008 13:51:21 GMT
It's a good story but it is let down by the bits in it that stretches the imagination. Optimus Prime's personality put onto a tiny floppy disk and Prime declaring that he has lost the game and must be destroyed because he killed a few CG characters instead of saving them. That's the genius of the story. Remember at this point the Creation Matrix is a computer program that bequeaths life upon the Transformers. We've not yet gotten the pseudo-mystical trappings from Simon Furman yet. It makes sense that Optimus Prime and the Autobots are going to have a connection with the computer characters. So his grief over them dying thanks to his actions is entirely correct and in keeping with the character of Prime. Such a shame that this aspect of the Transformers is never really followed up on. What is their attitude to non-sentient machinery and how do they react to Artificial Intelligences such as their own Aunty? A much underrated story and that splash page of Prime being destroyed is still powerful even now. Admittedly the containing of the mind on a 7.5 inch floppy disc is a bit of a stretch but one I can happily accomodate. After all if I could live with Bruce Banner's trousers stretching to accomodate the girth of the Hulk then I can live with the disc. Andy |
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 16, 2008 13:56:02 GMT
What I liked were the very strong hints when Prime 'came back' after life as a computer programme in later Budiansky stories that he wasn't the original anymore, but a 'copy'. At least, that was the inference I took. As a kiddy, I took it then that Prime really did die in Afterdeath and that the Powermaster version was a 'regeneration' of him, a bit like when Doctors changed in Doctor Who.
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 16, 2008 14:10:38 GMT
I took that from it as well. Optimus Prime died in Afterdeath and the Powermaster Prime was just a copy of him. Not quite up there with Doctor regenerations but somehow removed from the original.
God damn you Ralph I have some bloody ideas for fanfic now.
Andy
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Post by grahamthomson on Jul 16, 2008 15:14:40 GMT
Didn't Shockwave copy his entire mind onto a floppy disk in the next issue?
*GASPS* What if it was Shockwave's disk that was taken to Nebulos and inserted into Powermaster Prime?!?!
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jul 16, 2008 18:52:52 GMT
I must be in the minority here (but majority online!) in finding the story a bit too silly. Which is a pity, because the central idea - Prime dies in a minor conflict, and allows it to occur because he's become willing to sacrifice innocents - is a really strong one and some of the game trappings get in the way. It does lead to a bloody excellent next issue though. What I liked were the very strong hints when Prime 'came back' after life as a computer programme in later Budiansky stories that he wasn't the original anymore, but a 'copy'. Cold Comfort And Joy really strongly does this too - Prime being seperated from the "old" Prime's emotions for Earth. |
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 16, 2008 19:24:49 GMT
True, and if memory serves, Eugenesis also touched on the differences in Prime.
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 16, 2008 20:25:14 GMT
Such a shame that this aspect of the Transformers is never really followed up on. What is their attitude to non-sentient machinery and how do they react to Artificial Intelligences such as their own Aunty? I always took Aunty to be a fully sentient Matrixed Cybertronian (the old ones don't all transform), who suffered brain damage due to crashing into a planet. Is it ever implied that she is less alive than other robots? The fact that the TFs are initially puzzled by the concept of non-sentient machinery suggests to me that all pre-Earth TF machinery is sentient. Didn't Shockwave copy his entire mind onto a floppy disk in the next issue? His entire mind? Doubtful. |
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 16, 2008 20:47:39 GMT
Probably so. So if the disk was used to 'bring Prime back', it could result in a part-Prime running around...
-Ralph
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jul 16, 2008 21:11:27 GMT
True, and if memory serves, Eugenesis also touched on the differences in Prime. Yeah, the time-scooped Prime is The True One, that even those who knew Powermaster Prime casually can't help but be stunned by. And that brilliant bit where Nightbeat has to talk with Optimus about how the latter died and who was with him at the end. ("The Protectobots. You... you wouldn't know them.") |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 16, 2008 21:52:38 GMT
Such a shame that this aspect of the Transformers is never really followed up on. What is their attitude to non-sentient machinery and how do they react to Artificial Intelligences such as their own Aunty? I always took Aunty to be a fully sentient Matrixed Cybertronian (the old ones don't all transform), who suffered brain damage due to crashing into a planet. Is it ever implied that she is less alive than other robots? The fact that the TFs are initially puzzled by the concept of non-sentient machinery suggests to me that all pre-Earth TF machinery is sentient. If that's the case, which would fit quite well then what would happen to them as they learn to live with non-sentient machines and the culture shock of it when it is something that gets implemented back on Cybertron. It would make for some quite dark yet interesting stories. Also given the quite casual way Prime looks to get shot of the Matrix every few years you would think learning to create A.I's in some other fashion would be something of a priority among Transformers who wanted the species to survive. Andy |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 17, 2008 6:02:59 GMT
Actually, I'm being completely inconsistent in my comments here, because I've previously said that since the Decepticons didn't have a Matrix on Cybertron (and had forgotten biomorphic reproduction), their war effort relied heavily on non-Matrixed hardware, which Prime dismantled using the Matrix (like Buster with Jetfire) whenever he was on the battlefield.
However, I think my statement holds true with the pre-Ark Autobots, which might explain why the Decepticons did fewer double-takes than the Autobots when they arrived on Earth in #1-2, e.g. seemed unfazed by non-sentient machines when they attacked Harrison Nuclear Power Plant.
It may be to much of a stretch to say the TFs had never seen non-sentient machinery before, but they probably all thought of non-sentient machinery as something ultimately intended to be Matrixed - in the Autobots' case, when Prime or the custodian of the Flame had a free moment, in the Decepticons' case, when they ripped the Matrix from Prime's still-twitching corpse and gave life to their non-sentient Jetfire-like army.
So Earth, entirely populated by yet-to-be-Matrixed machines (can I use an unfertilised egg analogy?) must have seemed like one big factory only producing half-finished products.
Martin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2008 15:42:04 GMT
I took that from it as well. Optimus Prime died in Afterdeath and the Powermaster Prime was just a copy of him. Not quite up there with Doctor regenerations but somehow removed from the original. I always saw Powermaster Prime as a computer game character trying to survive in the real world. Because he had been used as a computer game character by Ethan Zachary in the time between the death of Optimus Prime and the birth of Powermaster Prime he had convinced himself that he was nothing but a pixelated creation. |
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Post by legios on Jul 19, 2008 17:00:13 GMT
“Afterdeath” is one of those stories that I have wrapped right around on over the years. I've gone back and forth between thinking it was great, and going off it, but coming back to it now I'm finding myself quite fond of it.
At heart it is really a fairly straightforward morality play. The Autobots and Decepticons both react to the unreal Multiworld in the same manner as they react to the real world – the Autobots with compassion and the Decepticons with cruelty – and the world reflects back their approaches, with the Autobots winning allies who help them to survive and the Decepticons fail to do so. It is a fairly wholesome moral statement - “be a good person and the world will reward you”. (Ethics is of course a much more complicated subject than that in the real world but that is by-the-by.) The death of Optimus Prime is actually quite shocking and unexpected – especially as he actually argues for his own execution. (In a kid's comic!) . I do think in this respect that this issue is very good showcase for Prime's character . It is he who reminds the Protectobots that even in an unreal world the Autobot ethical code still holds firm, and he who refuses to compromise on his ethics even to defeat Megatron – the original architect of millenia of war on Cybertron. This is not Prime as a figure of angst as he would later become, this is Prime as moral absolutist – believing that his moral code is sacrosanct and brooking no compromise. On one level it could be seen as one of the most noble Prime moments in the series. (Makes for an interesting comparison with the UK comics version of Rodimus Prime too – from a leader who would rather be executed than win a victory by unwittingly “killing” creatures that aren't real, to one who guns down enemy soldiers who are attempting to surrender. It seems that Autobot High Command swings from one extreme of morality to another. It does make me wonder whether they need a better method of determining their leaders...). On another level of course Prime's actions look a little.. pathological. After all, in defeating Megatron he has an opportunity to remove one of the most symbollically powerful figures amongst the Decepticons on Earth, and likely on Cybertron as well. Megatron has a great deal of blood and oil on his hands already, and if allowed to do so will almost certainly add more. Weighed against that it would seem that the accidental unreal deaths of some creatures that don't exists might be a price worth paying. I don't think that Prowl, for example, would have made the same decision as Optimus – his more pragmatic viewpoint would have weighted the harm against that done by Megatron's continuing to function. (Much as, in “Crisis of Command” he argued for accepting limited collateral damage in the short-term to minimise the long-term harm by ending the war swiftly.). It is nice to feel there is something there to ponder though and nice too that Prime's actions ring true to his character.
Megatron actually gets some nice characterisation here as well – his reluctance to expose himself to danger whilst he has expendable dup..er..troops to take the bullets for him is a nice counterpart to the way Prime's troops have to persuade him not to endanger himself. ( A shame that the Protectobots and Combaticons don't manage to must much in the way of characteisation though).
As to the aspect of storing Optimus Prime on a floppy disk, I think this is one of those things that just hasn't aged terribly well. Looked at from the perspective of the time I think it works much better. For many of Bob Budiansky's generation computers, at that point in time, were still boxes full of magic that did amazing and unprecedented things. These were still in some respects the days when you could, with a straight-face, have a teenager nearly launching all of the US's nuclear missiles from his bedroom - or a bored programmer zapped by a laser into the world inside a computer where only a ability to play Pong and Battlezone really well could save you. Computers were still amazing devices that did “Computer Stuff” that wasn't really understood by the general populace. Those days were coming to an end , as mass-market computing began to take hold -especially amongst the young, but for many mature adults computers were still strange, hallowed things that did incomprehensible “computer stuff. Looked at in that light I don't find it particularly egregious. But if a rationale is needed then perhaps what the disc contained was not in fact the whole of Optimus Prime's codebase, but merely a set of “seeds” which when executed created the remainder of the code to create “an” Optimus Prime along with a basic outline of experiences of his saved-games in Multiworld?
In no particular order I noticed a few other things whilst going through the story. Clearly Budiansky is beginning to think that the rigmarole of introducing the new toys is as regular and as vaguely absurd as some of the readership do. But he hasn't yet been crushed by the weight of new toys, so he seems to have decided to have some fun with this – having Megatron basically ask Prime if there are any other action features that the new guys have to demonstrate before they can get on with thumping each other is surely at least knocking gently on the fourth wall, and it does provide me with some enjoyment.
The “almost” deployment of actual science amuses me – the “Hydrothermocline” is apparently a generator that generates energy based on the difference in temperature between different layers of water..... So that would make it a generator that takes advantage of their being a temperature differential between the two sides of a hydrothermocline then...... (Which is a bit like calling a nuclear power station a “Uranium”.)
Now I'm not sure whether I have ever noticed this before but you can actually read some of the dialogue between Ethan Zachary and Margaret as pointing to her attempting to flirt with him (before she changes her mind once he demonstrate just how much of a video-game nerd he is). I'm not sure that it was intended that way, but there is an alternate reading in that vein available from the text.
Karl
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 19, 2008 19:21:33 GMT
Clearly Budiansky is beginning to think that the rigmarole of introducing the new toys is as regular and as vaguely absurd as some of the readership do. 'Afterdeath' was a very good story greatly spoilt by the newness of the secondary cast. Imagine how the issue would feel with virtually the same script, but with Prowl, Jazz, Ratchet, Wheeljack and Bumblebee present in place of the Protectobots, and with Shockwave, Soundwave, Starscream, Rumble and Ravage in place of the Combaticons. Even if they had no more dialogue than the Special Teams did, the history and established relationship between the leaders and their onlooking followers would have given so much more impact to the finale - it would have felt like the end of an era, rather than a Special Team intro story. Martin |
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 19, 2008 21:41:00 GMT
True, but I actually like the idea that Prime's final fight goes down in an obscure location, surrounded by characters he barely knows. None of his old friends are there at his end. It makes it just seem more lonely and sad. And no wonder Megatron goes off the rails not long after : no-one really important to him saw his 'victory'. What's the point in 'winning' if the important people don't see you do it?
-Ralph
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 26, 2008 21:15:19 GMT
Time for a hop-and-skip to the black and white era for...
PERCHANCE TO DREAM
-Ralph
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jul 27, 2008 6:27:19 GMT
I'm quite stunned and impressed that the Sunstreaker story was as brutal as it was - no wonder the Autobots never repaired him!
(Also, did Superion EVER work properly? Every time he forms, he seemed to go berserk in some way...)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2008 10:30:58 GMT
They were a nice collection of stories and some of the better ones I've read on the Marvel UK run.
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 31, 2008 11:29:03 GMT
I thought it was bobbins at the time. No explanation for Galvatron's return after being ripped apart by Time itself not that long previously. And he was taken out ludicrously easily as previously only Time itself could destroy him, FFS.
Reads OK these days as a harmless runaround. I hate Sunstreaker though. Still annoys me a bit though that something less than Time itself took out he was forged in the fires of feckin Unicron.
-Ralph
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jul 31, 2008 11:53:12 GMT
Actually it'd recently been shown Galvatron was still alive in the future because time had reset so he'd never time-jumped. Maybe he then did. For some reason.
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 31, 2008 11:59:59 GMT
It made no sense. It still makes no sense.
He was ripped apart by Time itself.
-Ralph
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