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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Nov 20, 2008 18:53:52 GMT
I like Time Wars. It's fun. It's sometimes easy to forget that these comics were action adventure stories aimed at kids, not fans in their 20's and up. Looked at that way, it's brilliant tosh. It really is. Explosions! Team-ups! Bendy Dan Reed art! Swirly space/time thing of doom! Limbo! Roadbuster being blown up by his own stupidity! Twins of evil! Ravage doing his box-art pose! Big fights! Lots of camp! A character being ripped apart by Time itself! Time travel! " It's the end! The end of the world!" The universe in dire peril! I was 13 and thought it bad writing at the time. Loads of set-up and no pay-off. Why did the writer have characters who mostly exist in the present day travel back in time from the future, do nothing to progress the plot and then wander back where they came from? How could Galvatron remember beating them all in 1989 when he comes from a future in which the 'Bots and 'Cons were all still alive in 2005? Why were the TFs who could previously be put back together after getting blown up now dying from having their heads detached or single shots from guns that previously did little damage? Why didn't present-day Ultra Magnus feature at all after all that promise of a final showdown? Why were the colours all screwed up in one issue? Why did no-one but Goldbug recognise time-travel effects? Why were all the facts in the free fact book wrong? Why didn't they finish the Underbase story and then do this one? (I was clever enough to spot all the above flaws, but bizarrely I hadn't fully cottoned on to the US/UK source thing.) Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 20, 2008 18:56:46 GMT
I think Time Wars is one of those stories which was especially age sensitive. I was 10 at the time and it did the job. Had I been even a year older, I do reckon the many narrative flaws would have annoyed me.
-Ralph
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Post by legios on Nov 20, 2008 19:32:31 GMT
I'd say that was probably fair. Being that year or so older I have to say that "Time Wars" was a sorry that I didn't really enjoy terribly much. It has some horrendous flaws of logic, and a lot of it revolves around robots thumping other robots on the basis of rather thin justification. It is a story that I find tolerable on those rare occasions that I am in the mood for a "dumb action story", just an excuse for stuff to blow up and big robots to hit each other. (Rather like my feelings towards the 2007 movie really). If I am looking for plot, somewhat more defined characterisation or something that involves on the story level I tend to look elsewhere.
"Time Wars" is what it is - the Transformers equivalent of an 80's action movie, and makes about as much sense. It has a few individual moments and isolated elements that I quite like, but overall it is a story I need to be in a very specific kind of mood to get much out of.
Although strangely, given my love of Ultra Magnus, I wasn't too bothered that he didn't have a chance for another go at Galvatron - even as a kid I felt that he had successfully demonstrated that he couldn't beat Galvatron, and I had no desire to watch him get the tar thrashed out of him again.
It did annoy me that Galvatron returned so swiftly though. Considering that we'd been given the absolute, definite, destruction of Galvatron - shredded down to his component atoms - it seems almost insulting for him to be casually brought back. If the character wasn't finished with he shouldn't have been so conclusively destroyed. Throwing a patch on it so casually is just irritating.
(Funnily enough I have never read the "Underbase" saga that is being cited a bit in this discussion. It is in one of the trades I never got around to buying. I think I've read an issue or so of it, but never the whole thing. Must give it a go one of these days).
Karl
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 20, 2008 19:44:21 GMT
You read my trade, Kaptain. I recall you guffawing at the "fill me with your unholy light" line.
-Ralph
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Post by legios on Nov 20, 2008 22:45:50 GMT
I did, Good grief. I'll be honest and admit that I have absolutely no recollection of any of the actual story content in that case. It appears to have passed into short-term memory but never been entered into long term.
Either that or someone deleted that chunk. I really need to check my brain's firewall is up to date.
Karl
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 24, 2008 16:01:26 GMT
And now...
MECHANICAL DIFFICULTIES!
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Nov 24, 2008 20:55:26 GMT
Decided to do it properly this week, so just read it straight through in the bath (Titan TPB in plastic protective cover).
One thing you have to say for Uncle Bob, is he packs plenty of story into his 22 pages. On pages 3-4, for example, we take time out from the war for a little classic TF robots-in-disguise side-story about two guys trying to break into Goldbug to steal Blaster. In the Earthforce era Furman would turn such a gag into a whole 6-page story, but it works much better as an almost throwaway aside. Then we have some nice dry lines of dialogue: "Commander, it's difficult enough getting the trust of the humans _without_ destroying them." "It was only your tire, Goldbug. A flesh wound." Contrasted with some high camp from the Mechanic: "Gentlemen, tonight I am announcing the dawn of a new era of crime in the Pacific northwest. And I've invited all of you here to be part of it."
It's a silly story, and the beginning of a rather protracted period of Grimlock being an implausibly buffoonish leader, and Blaster and Goldbug angsting around on their own, and it's one of the weakest stories up to that point, but now by itself it passes the time pleasantly enough.
Martin
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Post by legios on Nov 28, 2008 22:50:24 GMT
So,
"Mechanical Difficulties"
eh?
In some ways this is a story that looks a little lost, and feels like a product of Budiansky's long burnout on the title. Large parts of the story don't really feel like they are actually a Transformers story at all. Instead what we have is a thinly-disguised generic superhero story. The mechanic even has a costume now. In his first appearance his boiler-suit could perhaps have been accepted as just what he happened to be wearing at the time. Now it is what he wears _all the time_. The stolen Autobot tools have basically become The Mechanic's special Super-gadgets with which he carries out his crimewave. The Mechanic even comes equipped with the usual one-dimensional schtick of a D-list supervillian - he wants to become big in organised crime by means of his super-car-modding powers. Blaster becomes the vigilante superhero who has to forge a truce with the police, convincing them that they are on the same side, in order to take down a dangerous super-criminal(Goldbug of course becomes "Mini-bot Hostage", and therefore fits neatly into the sidekick slot). The beats of the main narrative would be pretty much preserved if this story had featured Daredevil or Spiderman. It isn't a terrible superhero story mind you - the sort of thing that would neatly fill up an issue of pretty much any costumed heroes book without looking too much out of place.
There is nothing in the main story that bears on the concept of "robots in disguise" to any great degree. That is left to the side-scenes, which are mostly played for "Herbie" style comedy relief, with the two most unlucky car theives in America not only failing to steal Goldbug, but also walking straight into a standard issue detective from an Auto-theft squad. The slap-stick sequence is actually pretty well done, and I actually enjoyed it slightly more than I did the main plot. It is pretty obvious stuff, but it grows naturally out of the idea of robots that can disguise themselves as cars. (Good job they didn't park up in inner-city Washington, Seattle or Baltimore mind you - Goldbug would have been stripped to his chassis whether he moved by himself or not......).
Sadly the brief visit to the Ark does not bode as well, either for this story or for issues to come. After giving us a reasonably nuanced depiction of a Grimlock who is smart enough to realise that he isn't smart enough or temperamentally suited to lead the Autobots, this issue does an about-face and presents us with the, to put none to fine a point on it - quite moronic Grimlock that we will be stuck with hereafter. A tyrannical thug, lacking even the low cunning that has previously been his hallmark this version lacks any redeeming features as a character, and sadly drags down the scene that he appears in along with him. Unfortunately we are going to be stuck with stupid-Grimlock for a considerable length of time, which makes this a particularly inauspicious start to his reign.
There are a few things that I appreciate more now I am an adult than I did as a youngster. The Auto Squad detective looks more and more like intentional comedy to me these days. The combination of his choice of clothes, and his dialogue does suggest to me that he isn't intended to be an entirely serious depiction. The "What, you only like to listen to Sinatra" joke is one that went right past me when I was a youngster. Looking at it now it surprises me as it hadn't occured to me that the rumour about Sinatra's connections was so well known back then.
It has its moments - some of the dialogue is decent enough, and even some of the lines that aren't very good - like a lot of the things the mechanic says - do indeed have camp value. It is pretty much a generic superhero story with added giant robots, but as generic superhero stories go it is perfectly competent. It is a long chalk from the titles heyday, but viewed in isolation it is at least midly diverting if nothing else.
Karl
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 29, 2008 12:57:52 GMT
Blaster and Goldbug make a good team, and the Mechanic is hilarious.
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Nov 30, 2008 8:52:05 GMT
I liked Blaster and Goldbug in this issue but in subsequent issues Blaster goes back to his moody angsty old self and drags Goldbug with him.
Bob had the Mechanic get away at the end of the story, with the Autobot tools, so he obviously hoped to use him again... but never did. He did a similar thing with the Road-Jammers, come to think of it. He didn't give many of his experimental human characters a proper ending, actually - Robot-Master is the only one that springs to mind, as he realises the error of his ways and donates his ill-gotten money to the Statue of Liberty Repair Fund at the end of Decepticon Graffiti.
Hmmm, given the way Grimlock got so upset about the stolen Autobot tools, and was so determined to get the Mechanic, I wouldn't put it past him to send a Dinobot hit squad after Donny Finkleberg for selling out Skids to RAAT a few months earlier... could be a story in that.
Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 30, 2008 11:40:06 GMT
Yes, a few of the human characters did not have a full resolution, but it never bothered me that much as it was pretty much par for the course in serialised comics. Besides, if a series lasts long enough even the most obscure characters can get a return at some point! Sometimes I think writers flick through the likes of Marvel Handbooks and think: "mmmm, character X was last seen 34 years ago, they must return!".
RE: Grimlock. Yes, I can see the Grimlock of that era going after Finkleberg. He's enough of a bastard to do it.
-Ralph
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Post by legios on Nov 30, 2008 13:04:49 GMT
In the case of the mechanic I thought the lack of resolution was fairly typical of his ilk. Very often in superhero comics a Z-list villian will successfully make his escape after his scheme has been thwarted, so that he can return to plague the hero again. Most of the time they don't tend to return until twenty years later when a new writer with an affection for the old stories comes onto the title and dredges them up again.
Grimlock is definitely the sort of leader who might decide to "tie up loose ends" with Finkleberg. A Dinobot hit squad is a fairly dumb idea - their are not exactly known for operating covertly and subtley but Grimlock of this era is once again exactly the sort of leader who is too dim to realise why they are a poor choice. I'd agree that there is definitely material in that idea.
Karl
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 30, 2008 14:32:27 GMT
Still time for more Mechanical Difficulties, but for next week I shall get it early and nominate...from #1 of Fleetway's Generation 2 UK comic...
WAR WITHOUT END
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Nov 30, 2008 20:59:27 GMT
Shallow script it may have been, but I found it a joyful breath of fresh air at the time, after all the grime and grittiness of the US G2 series. Robin Smith's artwork was like an old friend, saying, fear not, Transformers can still be fun!
Martin
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Nov 30, 2008 21:20:29 GMT
Can't be that bright and cheerful, the Decepticons are slaughtering London!
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Post by legios on Nov 30, 2008 22:43:43 GMT
I will honestly admit that I can't remember too much about this - I didn't read it at the time it came out. (I wasn't aware of the UK G2 comic until years later), and although I know I have read the UK issues I'm not sure I can remember what was in any particular one.
Clearly my education is sadly lacking.
Karl
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 30, 2008 22:45:58 GMT
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 1, 2008 8:03:58 GMT
Can't be that bright and cheerful, the Decepticons are slaughtering London! They're smashing it up, to be sure, but judging by the artwork it seemed they allowed the city to be evacuated before they started. The way Sideswipe is drawn alone marks this story out as G1 spirit rather than G2. The change from #2 to #3 (when it shifts to reprinting US G2 stories) is jarring. Parents who judged the comic's suitability for very young children based on the first two issues needed to be on their toes, both with regard to robot and human carnage. Martin
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Dec 3, 2008 0:45:29 GMT
I've a lot of fondness for the G2 uk comic and the first two issues do a good job of excising the GI Joe elements and allowing the introduction of the new Transformers. It does however mean that later on when they use the two part Tales of Earth where Bludgeon attacks Earth it comes across as a bit redundant.
Nice to see that in the UK version they attack the UK.
Nice shiny and bright art by Robin Smith and Bambos. I know Robin Smith has gone on record as saying he didn't enjoy drawing Transformers but he does some good work here. As Martin has said it's not exactly the strongest strip. It doesn't feel like it's paced correctly at least to me for a monthly comic. It does very much feel like it's an installment of a weekly/fortnightly comic.
For a longtime reader the fight between Bludgeon and Prime doesn't really hold much suspense as we know Prime can and would win, so it's a welcome relief that Megatron gets in on the action at the end of the tale.
I wonder, how much of the US comic they were planning on using as given the fact that so many new faces debut in War Without End? Perhaps a discussion for another thread.
Andy
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 4, 2008 22:18:25 GMT
I wasn't impressed at the time. It felt very childish compared to the Marvel Transformers comic and was about 3 times more expensive. Didn't help that there were much thicker (and cheaper) monthly Judge Dredd and 2000AD reprint titles I rather liked. So I picked up #1 and dropped the title straightway! I had no idea if any other issues were published until years after the fact as I saw no other issues in newsagents (I also had no idea there was a US G2 comic). I assumed it was a 1-issue flop.
Years after the fact, however, and with TF comics being an ongoing concern again, the brief Fleetway run can be put into a different perspective. It has a certain breezy tatty charm which has grown on me somewhat. From that perespective it's harmless fun but in the UK comics market circa 1994 it was too expensive for too little content in comparison to other competing titles on newsstands. A shame.
But remember: this comic is also a Transformer!
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Dec 4, 2008 22:23:44 GMT
Having seen an ongoing UK title on the shelves I bought two copies of the first two issues in my bid to help it last.
It wasn't enough.
Andy
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 4, 2008 22:29:38 GMT
It's your fault, Turnbull! If only you had bought 3 copies!
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Dec 4, 2008 22:30:45 GMT
I did later on in life. I think I've bought that comic about four or five times now and passed the spares on.
I'm a good man!!!
Andy
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 4, 2008 22:32:35 GMT
You did supply me with the other 4 issues. I shall show leniancy towards you. But only this once!
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Dec 4, 2008 22:35:53 GMT
You are too kind.
Andy
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Post by legios on Dec 4, 2008 23:58:49 GMT
The thing that strikes me about the Fleetway G2 comic, in comparison to the US G2 comic, is that they were aimed at very different demographics. The US comic seemed to be targeted at the folk who might have grown up reading the original US comic and were a few years older than they had been when the original mini-series debuted and weren't necessarily looking for the same things out of their comics. Hence the shift to a grimmer, slightly grittier war story format for the US G2 series.
By contrast the UK G2 comic feels more like it is aimed at the same target market as the original UK comic was in its early days - so it inevitably adopted a much "cleaner" style with the tone more of "exciting adventures of giant space robots".
I'm not entirely convinced that they were going after the same kind of audience at all. It does make me wonder how useable the US G2 material would actually have been in the long run, might they have been forced to go in the direction of sticking with originated material? We will never know of course, but I do find myself wondering from time to time.
Having refreshed my memory a little bit I do tend to agree that, in terms of "exciting adventures of giant space robots" it wasn't terribly bad really. The art was pretty decent, and the story was ok. From what I recall the individual issues were a bit content-light though.
Karl
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 8, 2008 22:41:32 GMT
And now...
TRANSFORMERS: THE MOVIE (ANIMATED)
MARVEL VERSION VERSUS IDW VERSION!
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Dec 8, 2008 22:47:17 GMT
Oooh a head to head. How grand?
Andy
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Dave
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Posts: 1,811
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Post by Dave on Dec 8, 2008 23:31:59 GMT
I'd have to read it again to find specific problems but I remember things annoying me with the Marvel version so I was pleased to hear IDW would be doing a new version for the twentieth anniversary.
And then it arrived. The script followed the movie pretty much exactly and the art was so similar to what was on-screen they may as well have done one of those screencap book thingys.
So I have to go with the Marvel version because it at least is different and includes some stuff that didn't make the movie. Also Galvatron wasn't that silly purple colour.
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Post by grahamthomson on Dec 9, 2008 14:10:45 GMT
Didn't Dreamwave also publish an adaptation of the Movie?
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