Suicide

[The Doctor]

It's one of the greatest of taboo subjects, very much of the We Don't Talk About That variety. I was reminded of the issue again recently when reading this news report: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7077678.stm

-Ralph

[Andy Turnbull]

It's a tricky subject to tackle because of the extreme emotions it tends to stir in people regarding the act. It's very easy for us to sit and brand those who take their own lives as cowards for doing it and for the pain and anguish they can cause those they leave behind. Yet on the other hand when we hear tales of the infirm and severely debilitated who simply wish to die with dignity as opposed to a long and painful death we can't quite rush to judge as quickly.

I was in the camp vehemently opposed to suicide in all forms for several years but age and some events have made me question my standing on it.

When my mother was diagnosed with Spinal Muscular Atrophy some years ago she was adamant that she did not want kept on life support when her condition worsened. At the time I was shocked and would have wanted to keep her alive in the hope that a cure could be found or she would somehow improve.

Eventually when her condition worsened and she did end up in hospital due to complications with a chest infection and pneumonia she was unable to breathe on her own and was comatose and was placed on a ventilator. Myself, my dad, my two sisters and the rest of the family were at the hospital and the ugly topic was raised as to what we should do.

At that point we were all conflicted, the family members who were a little distant were able to make their opinions rather quickly. Those of us who lived with her during her time with SMA didn't have any answers. On the one hand I wanted my mum to stay alive and with us, but I knew that she had been suffering and her quality of life was pretty poor so I couldn't say.

Less than twenty four hours later she slipped away having never regained consciousness and part of me is glad and for selfish reasons as it meant we didn't have to make that kind of decision.

So now when I think about whenever I hear of someone, be it a stranger or acquaintance (thankfully none of my friends has ever taken their own life) having committed suicide I don't judge them or their reasons for doing it, instead I feel sorrow that events had reached a point that they could only see one way out and of course my heart always goes out to their family and friends as they will never really know the reasons why or understand them fully.

Andy

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Good of you to share that, Andy. (Have some karma.) I think I would also be grateful to be spared that kind of decision.

I suppose we can crudely split the discussion into two categories: the terminally ill (or those who are physically incapable of continuing to have a reasonable quality of life), and people who are physically healthy but in emotional distress, and who take their own lives.

It is easier for most of us to state a simple position on the second category: suicide early in life when the person has decades of potential life to live in complete health is a bad thing, and a failure on the part of society to give the emotionally distraught person the support they need to get through it. I'm not saying that support is a trivial matter, or even possible in some cases (I'm no expert on mental illness), but failure to provide it is still failure, even where expectation of success is unreasonable.

I doubt anyone here will disagree with the view that society should strive to get this second type of suicide down to as few in number as humanly possible.

Martin

[The Doctor]

I support people's rights to choose whether they wish to continue living if affected with a terminal illness/severe impairment to quality of life.

As for when otherwise healthy people choose to end their lives, I also believe people have the right to choose what to do with their life, whether I agree with it or not. I just haven't the right to make judgements about it.

-Ralph

[legios]

I'd agree that Suicide is one of the great taboo subjects - something that people in general find it very difficult to discuss. (It is worth remembering that it isn't that long really since the law was changed so that suicide wasn't illegal in Britain).

There is still I would say a lot of stigma associated with it. It is often seen as "taking the easy way out", and of course a number of religions actively frown upon it - taking that the position that it is not up to the individual to decide when they will die. In theory I lean more towards the idea that an individual has the right to chose the nature and manner of their death - we are the masters of our own lives and a part of that has to be the right to chose how those lives end. That isn't entirely a comfortable position but my instinct, and from personal experience, is that if someone has carefully considered their situation and come to a premeditated decision that they wish to die I'm not sure that it is possible to stop them. And I'm not entirely sure that one should try.

Karl

[jameso]

My views are pretty much, without dismissing the impact on their friends and family, that suicide is the business of the person doing it.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I have to say I'm shocked by those last few responses.

Of course, if someone healthy and sane is firm and consistent over a period of time that they wish to take their own life, and it is clear that position is unlikely to change with support from family and friends, there is no way to stop them going off and throwing themselves in front of a train, and that's fair enough. It would be wrong to force someone to stay alive in a straitjacket.

But so many suicide attempts only affect the way the person feels at that particular moment, and do not reflect their desires of 24 hours previously, or indeed 24 hours later should they still be alive then.

If I saw someone about to throw themselves off the roof of a tall building and had the chance to wrestle them to the ground and force them down to a place of safety, or talk them out of it, I wouldn't hesitate to do so.

Because they can always kill themselves later if that really is what the whole person wants, but they can't kill themselves now and then change their minds later when they're feeling differently.

Sane people - perhaps who have just suffered a great loss - can make mistakes in the heat of the moment, and because this is one that can't be set right later, I feel I would owe it to the person they might be 24 hours later (who may well wish to live) to stop them. If I'm wrong, they can always try again.

Martin

[The Doctor]

Here's something for everyone to ponder: trying to keep someone alive when they wanted to end their life, is that societies needs being enforced or the individual's needs? Something else to ponder is whether you think the very concept of suicide is inherenty wrong or not? Does this then colour our attitudes towards someone who comitted suicide?

-Ralph

[jameso]

When I say it's only the business of the person involved, I don't mean that no one should attempt to help them when they are still alive - what I mean is, I don't believe there's any real justification to go on the internet afterwards and criticise that person.
So when people say what are your thoughts on suicide, I don't have any opinion on its merits, and I wouldn't really want to enter in debate about whether it's acceptable or not. That's what I mean when I say it's not my business.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

thedoctor said:

Something else to ponder is whether you think the very concept of suicide is inherenty wrong or not? Does this then colour our attitudes towards someone who comitted suicide?

All the suicides I've encountered personally (of healthy people), I would consider to have been mistakes on the parts of those who committed them, because they were based on current circumstances rather than on their lives as a whole. All of us give disproportionate significance to what happens to us today, compared with what will happen a year from now or what happened a year ago - e.g. a break-up with a loved one, a bereavement, problems at work. If such things don't drive you to suicide at the time and things settle down afterwards, you get over them.

The suicides I've known I would therefore consider to be mistakes, because the people concerned had loving families and good prospects for future happiness - but because of human nature, their current worries proved unbearable. Perhaps the tragedies could have been avoided with better communication of their concerns... Maybe we bottle too much stuff in, keep too much stuff private, and that societal trends affect suicide numbers as a result, I don't know.

So suicide is often wrong in the sense that it is an avoidable waste, though the person who commits it is not to blame.

It is also wrong in the sense that it causes great suffering for families. The worst cases I know are when an only child takes their life. In an ideal world I think no parent should outlive their children. Not everyone appreciates how much of themselves most parents invest emotionally in bringing a new life into the world, and how the loss of a child can destroy their happiness forever. But the out-of-proportion concerns of many suicides probably don't bring such considerations to the fore.

But I don't think any of this makes suicides bad people, simply victims (but not the only victims) of tragic circumstances.

Unless of course they do it out of spite.

Martin

[Shockprowl]

The suicides I've come across in my line of work are tragic in the extream (happens more than I'd have ever beleived). Some of them have been considered and planned. But most always seemed like split decissions to me, crudely done, perhaps in the heat of the moment, pretty much what Martin was saying. We also get ALOT of attempted suicides, which in many cases are cries for help.

I do believe that there should be the provision in law for a terminaly ill person to decided to die. There are D.N.R.s, Do Not Resucitate, forms that have to been signed by the persons GP, in which case we would not commence resuscitation on a person (situations I always find difficult), but this is obv not the same thing.

[The Doctor]

There is a free training programme run in 1 or 2 day sessions called ASSIST suicide prevention training, which originated in Canada. It's run all over the place, though I'm buggered if I can find the web link. It's great for raising awareness on the issues surrounding suicide in a thought-provoking way. It's aimed at the general public and I would recommend anyone do it if they get the chance.

Further on suicide, some rambling thoughts presented in no particular order nor with any particular emphasis. In my working life, I have found that when people say "I am suicidal" they generally aren't 100% sure of that conviction. They express highly charged thoughts and usually look for help. When people have been 100% genuine in their desire to end their lives, they've just gone and done it.

Several years ago, when I was attending a depression support group, I became friendly with a young man there over a few months. He seemed quite an outgoing chap and I recall with fondness one hilarious night-out in particular. He seemed his usual self at one meeting. A few days later he went up some hills and never came back down. Though staff did not fully disclose the nature of his death, it was heavily implied he had taken his own life. I'll never really know. I was deeply upset by this and was unable to participate in the group thereafter. Though I only knew the man for a brief period of time, he made an impact on me. Am I sad he apparently choose to 'pack it in'? Yes. But also I am aware he was an articulate and intelligent human being who had issues in his life which he almost certainly choose to resolve in his own way. Who am I to judge or say he should have sought out more support or that he should not have done it?

I have been suicidal in the past. Genuinely so, and I would have been bloody furious had anyone interfered. My life is my own. I shall choose the manner of how I live it, and if I wish, the manner of of how I end it and when. Now, I chose to live, but it was my choice to make. This is a judgemental statement to make but I make it nonetheless: I do not think it is possible to fully understand the issue of suicide unless you have been in that mental state yourself. Otherwise, the frames of reference are just too alien, too vast a gulf to cross.

But we should try to talk about it anyway.

-Ralph

[The Doctor]

Suicide possibly linked to brain changes:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7689522.stm

I'm not really sure how I feel about that, in all honesty.

-Ralph

[Deleted]

In the past few years two people who worked at the same factory as me took their own lives. They were both at seperate intervals and not related in any way but it was still a shock to hear of the news. One of the people in question was a friendly middle-aged man who didn't seem like he would do such a thing but he did which made me wonder if he was just glossing over what he was going through outside of the factory gates. Sometimes it can be marital problems which causes hese people to go over the edge and there have been reports in the past that a man (or a woman) can take their own life if their partner ether dies or leaves them for somebody else. Madness of illness aren't the sole explanations for such an event. The wave of suicides that hit Bridgend not so long ago are possibly related to one person taking their own life due the loss of a partner or friend and their friends doing likewise for the exact same reason.