Regeneration One

[blueshift]

Aug 8, 2012 10:51:44 GMT The Doctor said:

It's not a lack of imgination. I wish the panel had been filmed. It all makes sense once you see the writer explain it.

-Ralph

I was there, though admittedly not completely mentally all there! I just mean that I completely understand that they don't want to rely on reader's knowledge of the UK comic and that it is a continuation of Marvel US, but it doesn't mean you need to go out of your way to make it contradict Marvel UK

Oh oh oh or does this mean it's an opportunity for us to make soem 5 page b/w strips to fill in the gaps and make it fit, like back in the day? ;D

[The Doctor]

I would say so.

-Ralph

[Bogatan]

Thats been my thinking. So far its mostly explaining a few back from the dead characters which is hardly anything new.

After reading the first 40 odd issues of TFUK together for the first time, I already want to do the pages that would link the UK and US issues into a more coherent whole. It would mean inserting chunks of art into the middle of existing comics though.

[glaug]

Regen One resurrecting TMUK fiction would entertain me greatly.

[The Doctor]

It may get it all started up again.

-Ralph

[The Huff]

Aug 8, 2012 8:44:16 GMT blueshift said:

To be honest that's the one thing I dislike about Regeneration One. Being a continuation of the US comic is one thing, but going out of your way to deliberately contradict the UK stories is another (with some characters alive who should be dead etc).

Honestly, it feels like a lack of imagination, and I don't know why they think it needs to be 'all or nothing'. The setting is a war which is millions of years old, lots of things have happened. Characters referring to a UK story is exactly the same thing as characters referring to events we havn't seen.

Hah! I can't believe that we were typing more or less the same comment at the same time. Except I edited mine so yours got in first.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I take all the points in Simon's defence, but it still sticks in my mind that the Generation 2 comic - which was equally written for a US market - included Springer and Broadside for the first time in the US but not Sandstorm (killed in Time Wars), and showed all the Stunticons except Wildrider (framed as a traitor and killed by Megatron in Earthforce) and had Quake but not the two Double Targetmasters who Carnivac killed, and so on. It may have all been coincidence but it struck me as care being taken not to jar with UK stories, though US readers would never notice.

And in his first TFUS run, Simon introduced Emirate Xaaron (still alive in the UK story) to the US readers, but not Impactor or Rack'n'Ruin (who were dead). I don't for a minute believe he'd have used Xaaron in the US if he'd been killed in the UK stories. Plus - flashback to the UK Deathbringer story in a US strip. US readers wouldn't have understood it, but it might have still added an extra mysterious dimension for them.

It just seems to me that the comic could have been made no worse for the US-only readers, and much better for the (admittedly fewer in number) readers of both US and UK stories (those who don't mind the Earth being destroyed in mainstream TF continuity), by taking the same approach here. And they'd have been on a much stronger footing for marketing this as a continuation of the original TF story if it was a continuation of Simon's original TF story and not just of Bob's.

Martin

[primenova]

But when Simon took over the US title - most Marvel US editors didn't even know they produced a Transformers comic. I guess they all expect it was cancelled at #25. Does anyone know if any features appeared in Marvel Age after #44 Nov'86 Transformers Movie issue - next I know of is the G2 feature in the comic around may'93?

[The Doctor]

At the end of the day, there's just no way this series can possibly service all needs and wishes for it.

-Ralph

[jameso]

What bugs me was when it was announced I basically dreamt up my own version and then when the actual project started up it didn't match and my interest waned. As soon as the 20 year jump was announced my interest dropped, I wanted issue 81 what happens the next day.
I'm certain that regeneration issue 81 is nothing like what issue 81 would have been in 1992 if Marvel had changed their mind and uncancelled the book.
However, I fully concede that this is my fault for dreaming up my own version before it came out!

[The Doctor]

I think we'll all have that to some extent. By virtue of 21 years having passed and the creators having done other things (Transformers or otherwise) there's just no way this can meet expectations. And there already was a comic continuation not long afterwards anyway.

This is being published by a different company in a very different market to a different audience (Marvel's series was still aimed at kids remember, today's IDW TF comics are aimed at a mostly adult fanbase). And we're all 21 years older. It can never match the feelings we had about comics, Transformers and reading that we had at age 8, 10, 12, etc. And let's not forget TMUK's output. It may be a trickle now, but I find it hard to ignore the various fanfic continuations of the Marvel run that I have read (or written!).

I think the way to read it is as a 'what if?' scenario for some of the characters and events from ye olde Marvel. Then decide for yourself whether you want it to 'fit', replace G2 etc or keep it as an alternative ending or even ignore it if it isn't your cup of tea. But take a moment to remember Fun Pub's attempt at doing a Marvel continuation, which I would argue missed the point entirely.

Frankly, that anything new related to the Marvel TF run is being published today still boggles my mind. As recently as a year ago that still seemed to a ludicrous idea. I would have preferred a #333 approach (ie following from ALL the pre-existing UK and US material) but I'll take this for what it is. It entertains me and it's a real pleasure to see Wildman and Baskerville both back on a TF book and also having a style that still works in relation to today's comic market and other TF comics IDW are putting out.

Plus, as commented above, I think when this is played out there is a real potential for TMUK fiction to rise again, with new material to feed upon.

-Ralph

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Aug 9, 2012 16:28:16 GMT The Doctor said:

I think we'll all have that to some extent. By virtue of 21 years having passed and the creators having done other things (Transformers or otherwise) there's just no way this can meet expectations. And there already was a comic continuation not long afterwards anyway.

This is being published by a different company in a very different market to a different audience (Marvel's series was still aimed at kids remember, today's IDW TF comics are aimed at a mostly adult fanbase). And we're all 21 years older. It can never match the feelings we had about comics, Transformers and reading that we had at age 8, 10, 12, etc. And let's not forget TMUK's output. It may be a trickle now, but I find it hard to ignore the various fanfic continuations of the Marvel run that I have read (or written!).

I think the way to read it is as a 'what if?' scenario for some of the characters and events from ye olde Marvel. Then decide for yourself whether you want it to 'fit', replace G2 etc or keep it as an alternative ending or even ignore it if it isn't your cup of tea. But take a moment to remember Fun Pub's attempt at doing a Marvel continuation, which I would argue missed the point entirely.

Frankly, that anything new related to the Marvel TF run is being published today still boggles my mind. As recently as a year ago that still seemed to a ludicrous idea. I would have preferred a #333 approach (ie following from ALL the pre-existing UK and US material) but I'll take this for what it is. It entertains me and it's a real pleasure to see Wildman and Baskerville both back on a TF book and also having a style that still works in relation to today's comic market and other TF comics IDW are putting out.

Plus, as commented above, I think when this is played out there is a real potential for TMUK fiction to rise again, with new material to feed upon.

-Ralph

I agree with all the above... except for the last bit. I don't think I've got it in me to go through all that again. Any TF stories I may write in future will be set firmly within the 1984-1991 time period.

As for RG1, I'll just enjoy it as a 'Rhythms of Darkness'-type nightmare alternate reality thingy... which is kind of how I think of G2 now as well.

Martin

[legios]

I think from the very beginning when this was announced I was inclined to be in the camp that viewed it as a continuation rather than the continuation. For me it couldn't have been otherwise - there have been other attempts to tell the "what comes next" over the years and to expect all of them to line up is somewhat futile. But then I tend to treat Transformers in the same way I treat Arthurian myth - there are lots of versions, all of which are somewhat contradictory and they coexist in a sort of nebulous mass of semi-disagreement. In the same way I have my "default" version of Transformers - the one that includes the UK comic, Eugenesis, Globequake, CG2 etc - and then all the other versions in a probabilistic cloud around that. For me Regeneration One is just another valid alternate take on the subject matter, rather than a singular truth.

I don't feel particularly let down by RGOne, perhaps because of that. It is interesting to see where this creative team find themselves two decades later, and what sort of story they are crafting with the elements they are choosing to use and discard. But then, I never really expected it to acknowledge the UK material - to be economically viable this title has to be aimed at the US fanbase, who have in general voted with their feet in deciding not to read the UK material when it became available (not intended as a criticism or a slight - that is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, it is as valid a choice as my choice to ignore most of the Sunbow cartoon). I'm surprised enough that we are getting a sequel to the Marvel US comic - for it to be a sequel to the UK comic was something I always felt would be much like a step too far.

What does fascinate me in terms of my own expectations is that I was caught napping in terms of the tone of the series. I figured that if the ultra-violent nineties had given us Jhiaxus and his genocidal stormtroopers then the tide of brutality would have fallen somewhat by the twenty-first century.

SPOILER: Click to show

Foolish Karl. With the nuclear devastation of the Earth, hints of terrible developments on Nebulos - and most of all the horrific prospect of Megatron's army of lobotomised Decepticons I'm not sure that the opening issues of this series aren't more brutal than the corresponding issues of Generation Two!

.

In the final analysis I am happy enough with this series - for me it is simply another alternate take on the US comic, and I am happy enough with it on that level. I figure that there is plenty of room for alternate story branches as long as they were done well. (That was the problem with the Fun Pub version, not that it existed but that it was bad. That and the fact that they seemed to be struggling to remember at times that the US comic and the Sunbow cartoon were distinctly different)

Karl

[primenova]

How would people feel if Simon stated everything in Aspect of Evil was real events [when 2 of them don't fit in Scorp & Megs] We know the Unicron story is just Rodimus's wrapped view of #251-254.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Aug 9, 2012 20:40:18 GMT legios said:

the US fanbase, who have in general voted with their feet in deciding not to read the UK material when it became available (not intended as a criticism or a slight - that is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, it is as valid a choice as my choice to ignore most of the Sunbow cartoon)

Understandable if they aren't interested in the Marvel continuity, or don't like Simon Furman's work. But if they like Furman's US work, not taking the chance to read his (best) UK stuff is weird.

Martin

[primenova]

But the US fanbase where the ones who wrote letters into the Marvel comic saying they hated Geoff Senior art [anyone find the letters? be US #60-68]. I like Senior art for one reason with the US comic at the time - because I like Starscream to be drawn correctly.

[Benn]

Hated... Geoff... Senior....? Mind blown. Kaboom. All over the shop.

[The Doctor]

Aug 10, 2012 6:47:09 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

Aug 9, 2012 20:40:18 GMT legios said:

the US fanbase, who have in general voted with their feet in deciding not to read the UK material when it became available (not intended as a criticism or a slight - that is neither a good thing nor a bad thing, it is as valid a choice as my choice to ignore most of the Sunbow cartoon)

Understandable if they aren't interested in the Marvel continuity, or don't like Simon Furman's work. But if they like Furman's US work, not taking the chance to read his (best) UK stuff is weird.

Martin

I have no wish to criticise our US chums. All I can say is that going by message board posts over the years, generally there's been very little interest in the UK material across the pond. Folk just don't want to read it.

-Ralph

[The Doctor]

Aug 10, 2012 8:49:49 GMT Benn said:

Hated... Geoff... Senior....? Mind blown. Kaboom. All over the shop.

I can understand why US fans did not take to Senior's issues, given the context of mainstream US comics art of the time. It was very, very different from what they were used to.

-Ralph

[Jim]

Therein lies one of the great things about TFUK - the sheer variety of art styles we were exposed to as young 'uns. I continue to be sure that having been reading that comic at an impressionable age did me lots of good.

[skillex]

From what Ralph's been saying I do understand why RG1 is not a sequel to the US and UK stuff, just the US stuff ... But... I really really wish it was a sequel to both! I agree wholeheartedly with what Martin was saying about how (the continuity mess that is Earthforce aside*) Furman's US run didn't contradict his UK run, nor did Furman's G2 run contradict the UK stuff. It just seems a shame. Having said that, if one squints and assumes that the Last Autobot and/or Grimlock's nucleon resurrected many of those killed in the Time Wars and Starscream's Underbase assault then maybe RG1 could be made to fit after all?

* - Although obviously Furman intended it all to fit when he started, it just never did. Interestingly enough, how did TMUK fit it in, ISTR reading plot summaries setting it between the Unicron War and G2, with Shockwave as a Liege Centuro.

[Deleted]

Aug 12, 2012 9:57:21 GMT skillex said:

Having said that, if one squints and assumes that the Last Autobot and/or Grimlock's nucleon resurrected many of those killed in the Time Wars and Starscream's Underbase assault then maybe RG1 could be made to fit after all?

See, multiple easy fixes right there, and with a 21-year time gap there's bound to have been other options too.

There's really no reason Simon couldn't have slipped in a line of dialogue somewhere to explain resurrecting 2 or 3 reliable soldiers - even daring to use it as a characterisation point, with perhaps their commander being hesitant to put the resurrectees at risk, or with them being eager to prove themselves as not liabilities. Anyone not familiar with their UK deaths would have simply taken it as an attempt to flesh out unfamiliar characters, or hint at the conflicts of the last 21 years.

Or failing that, even just as another refresher of some of the final events of the original run.

I think on some level it's almost offensive that Simon chose to ignore what seems like such an easy and obvious fix. As per so many other comments in here, I can understand not wanting to overcomplicate the backstory for the US readers who've missed the UK stories, but there's really no need to flatly contradict them and annoy those of us UK fans like this.

That being said, I'm happy to imagine the quick fix myself and simply enjoy the new series for what it is. And thus far, I have enjoyed it - although to be honest I've been finding Andy's art a little variable - for example a couple of consecutive panels in #82 with Kup and Skywarp where he's clearly put more effort into the character in the foreground and skimmed over the one in the back.

[Fortmax2020]

I have to say there are times when I am glad that it is just the story and writing that I do not like in Regeneration One. I have no problem with the continuity fitting or not fitting exactly.

Furman is very unlikely to be maliciously screwing over UK fans for little reason. I gather that at Auto Assembly he made that point multiple times throughout the weekend and with some fans it seemed to go in one ear and out the other.

It would be nice to see the discussion here focus more on the merits of the series itself as a story/adventure rather than on how it personally upsets some fans for not being exactly what they would have preferred. Not meaning this personally to anyone but the conversation is starting to veer towards unnecessary negative comment on Furman himself rather than his work.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Aug 13, 2012 13:14:54 GMT Fortmax2020 said:

I have to say there are times when I am glad that it is just the story and writing that I do not like in Regeneration One. I have no problem with the continuity fitting or not fitting exactly.

Furman is very unlikely to be maliciously screwing over UK fans for little reason. I gather that at Auto Assembly he made that point multiple times throughout the weekend and with some fans it seemed to go in one ear and out the other.

It would be nice to see the discussion here focus more on the merits of the series itself as a story/adventure rather than on how it personally upsets some fans for not being exactly what they would have preferred. Not meaning this personally to anyone but the conversation is starting to veer towards unnecessary negative comment on Furman himself rather than his work.

I partly agree and partly disagree with you, Gavin. I agree we shouldn't make moral judgements about the writer's intentions and what-not. I know he's a lovely bloke, and whatever he said at Auto-Assembly was no doubt an accurate statement of how and why he was making his various choices.

Where I disagree with you completely is trying to draw a distinction between the "story and writing"/"merits of the series itself" and its status as a continuation or not of the earlier Marvel saga - i.e. continuity - and describing the latter as "how it personally upsets some fans for not being exactly what they would have preferred" - as if it is somehow less picky and more objective/fair to comment on the comics in isolation than in terms of their being part of a wider story.

I have always felt that an essential (not optional) component of Transformers storytelling was the building of a coherent definitive history. If I were to just read individual stories as standalone, self-contained pieces of art, each set in its own little what-if universe, I'd never have got hooked in the first place.

I firmly believe that unless you are a short story writer whose characters only appear in one story, and each of whose stories has no consequences in any other story - and there is certainly much merit in such stories, but it's a very different art form - then readers have just as much right to hope for good continuity as they do good plot, art, characterisation, pacing and so on. I.e. it's just as much fair game for criticism as those other things. Of course, the creators are free to ignore that criticism, but they are equally free to ignore criticism of plot, pacing, artwork, etc. when that's not to certain people's tastes.

What country a story was published in carries no weight with me in terms of story merit. I can accept "it's only intended as a continuation of the stories published in the US" as a commercial justification for a certain decision, but it's not a decision based on artistic/storytelling judgement, which would be blind to such distinctions. It's not petty or being over-demanding as a fan to lament the fact that the creators have selected which stories are in or out of their universe by the dictates of geography rather than which stories actually deserve to be in or out in storytelling terms.

Gosh, that's a long ramble. But those who don't care about continuity discussions should please just ignore them rather than try to prevent or draw a line under them.

You're right - don't get personal about the writer, just focus on the quality of his work - but the quality of his work includes his judgements when making universe-building decisions, and they can be judged in artistic terms.

Martin

[Bogatan]

We're two issues in, I think its too early to make too many judgements on how things fit.

Theres another 18 issues that may or may not delve into the previous 21 years. For example US fans now know who and what the Wreckers are thanks to IDW, so there could yet be a throw away line about Roadbuster being nearly killed in a big battle 20 years ago that to a US fan is just there to show that these Wreckers are just as violent and prone to dying (or nearly dying) as the IDW versions, but to UK readers is a clear nod to Time Wars. LSOTW was full of nods to UK continuity that didnt negatively affect the read no reason Furman cant do the same.

So I guess I'm saying one the one hand give it time, filling the first handful of issues with exposition to show that the UK timeline fitted would not of made for good comics even if that had been Furmans plan. On the other hand theres still time to "encourage" a few lines sprinkled in that at least nod to UK events.

Aug 12, 2012 9:57:21 GMT skillex said:

I agree wholeheartedly with what Martin was saying about how (the continuity mess that is Earthforce aside*) Furman's US run didn't contradict his UK run, nor did Furman's G2 run contradict the UK stuff. It just seems a shame

But didnt Unicron appearing in 1991 instead of 2005 do exactly that, I'll admit its a few decades since I read those stories but the only explicit explanation that I remember came from TMUK. If I'm wrong please spoiler anything beyond "no that isnt what happened" as I'm in the middle of rereading them and if I have forgotten parts I dont want the surprise ruining.

[The Doctor]

Two points:

-The original run's internal consistency completely went to pot in its last two years anyway (Earthforce, the black and white Decepticon leadership issues, etc in no way whatsover squaring with the later US stories). If anyone wants to complain about continuity, you're over 20 years too late.

-Marvel's Transformers was not created with the intention of being a great work of art. It existed to sell toys and nothing more. That it was generally a decent read is quite accidental. But sometimes we do have to take off our rose-tinted spectacles and see it for what it was.

-Ducks are amazing animals.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

I appreciate continuity as much as the next person and would rather see sequential development of characters too. However, as has been pointed out, there are commercial reasons at play here which trump that. If there weren't I'm sure Furman would have made effort to fit RG1 more in line with the old UK comics. He is writing to his brief and I think it is a tad unfair to be making him so personally responsible for things that are very likely beyond his control.

Let's have some discussion on the story etc - within the limits it has. I'm not impressed by it so far. Someone convince me otherwise!

[The Huff]

But the whole point of RG1 (and it's main selling point to me) is to continue (and finish) the original story - surely the continuity is one of the main parts that people will want to discuss.
As I said, am still enjoying the issues all the same.

[primenova]

I wonder if anyone reminded Hasbro that the big Transformers Movie set in 2005/2006 happened in those years when TFRG1 is set 2012. Hasbro don't seem bother about the fact that the comic doesn't allow for the Movie to happen - & with Simon not being the one who wrote the Movie, this shows that is must be more an Hasbro thing & they are suddenly ignoring the Movie.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2012 13:14:54 GMT Fortmax2020 said:

I have to say there are times when I am glad that it is just the story and writing that I do not like in Regeneration One. I have no problem with the continuity fitting or not fitting exactly.

Furman is very unlikely to be maliciously screwing over UK fans for little reason. I gather that at Auto Assembly he made that point multiple times throughout the weekend and with some fans it seemed to go in one ear and out the other.

It would be nice to see the discussion here focus more on the merits of the series itself as a story/adventure rather than on how it personally upsets some fans for not being exactly what they would have preferred. Not meaning this personally to anyone but the conversation is starting to veer towards unnecessary negative comment on Furman himself rather than his work.

Apologies if it seemed like I was starting to attack Furman, it was never my intention. As I tried to say in my last post, I like the series thus far, aside from some minor quibbles with the artwork.

In terms of the actual story, it's intriguing me so far - though nothing yet has really blown me away, but I do feel the current arc is still partly trapped in typical "season-opener" mode trying to catch up with everyone and set out the new status quo. I'm more interested to see what happens once "Loose Ends" is done and we can properly move into next phase.

As for the continuity, in all honesty it's been so long since I read the UK material that I'd forgotten about the deaths, and was more than happy with the story until I popped in here and had the clash pointed out. And as Bogatan said, there's still time for Simon to fit in a throwaway explanation, and too much exposition would have bogged the new series down somewhat.