Regeneration One

[Fortmax2020]

Given this three issues but its still not grabbing me so shall pass on future issues unless I hear something amazing.

The pacing feels too slow for the old style story telling and like others here I am finding many of the 'shocks' of this far to disjointed and inconsistent rather than smart and interesting. The art is improving and there are occasional flashes of imagination in the scene setting but its not particularly to my taste.

Maybe there'll be a decent pay off at some point but I'm not sensing that yet.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I always felt the Marvel Transformers story was about the Transformers trying to survive the alien (to them) environment of Earth, and the Autobots to avoid harm coming to the relatively small number of humans endangered by the Decepticons' operations and their own clumsiness - hence the need for them to take Earth disguises.

Nuclear weapons and biological warfare seemed to be off the menu of storytelling options for the same reason that the Decepticons were blind to the fact that the sun and the gas giants are much better sources of energy to harness than hydroelectric power plants and oil rigs - following logic on those points would have made the story too short and boring, and made the whole Transformers concept pointless. (A James Bond villain or Cobra can threaten the Earth with nukes or bioweapons - it's unworthy of the Transformers, whose interest lies in what their individual bodies can do in a particular situation.)

Given those restraints on real-world logic, it always seemed to me that the Transformers were at greater risk of extinction than the humans. Humans outnumbered them a hundred million to one (prior to G2, there only appeared to be hundreds of Transformers still alive, even on Cybertron). Their technology had hardly advanced in four million years, while ours was advancing at light speed. Within a few years of their arrival humans and Nebulans had Circuit-Breaker, Centurion, the Road-Jammer technology, poisons for Transformer fuel and Professor Morris's machine, and we were binary-binding to and taking over the minds and bodies of their leaders - Optimus, Fort Max, Scorponok.

I was more concerned that the humans would soon have the Transformers all at their mercy than vice versa, due to the humans' numbers, their creativity and their speed of technological advance. When Bob Budiansky finished his run, the Decepticons were effectively led by a human - Lord Zarak - which I felt was the natural progression of the humans' threat to control Transformers going back to Buster's control of Jetfire, Joey Slick's of Megatron and Morris's of Swoop. The partnership between Prime and HiQ was the more upbeat outcome. When Triple-I acknowledged that the Autobots were friendly and allowed the Throttlebots' brains to go free, I did feel the Decepticons' days were numbered.

I think my interest in the human-Transformer potential for partnership/control is one of the things that has constantly renewed my interest in the franchise, culminating in the Masterforce series. I just loved the contrast between the Transformers' initial technological superiority and humans' superior capacity to create and imagine - and ultimately control. Even in the TF universe, I think the biggest threat to the human race is its own power outstripping its wisdom/self-control.

The Autobots seemed particularly heroic to me when they tried to protect humans from Decepticons even while they were at threat from hostile humans. If Mount St Hilary erupted in 2084 rather than 1984, if humans hadn't destroyed Earth themselves by 2084, then I couldn't see the Transformers standing a chance against Earth weapons or computers. They came to Earth at just around the time we were catching up and preparing to overtake them, and when they could compete with us on even terms.

I never considered (until G2) the prospect of Transformers causing mass destruction on Earth a likely outcome, given the rules of logic/storytelling that appeared to apply to the comic.

Martin

[Deleted]

I must admit I'm impressed by Martin's reading of the saga, about humans being the greater threat and ultimately assuming control of the robot war, as I'd never considered it from that angle before and it's actually making me rethink the whole thing.

To be honest, I'd always found the begruding bond between Spike and Fort Max to be the crux of the relationship between "us" and "them". They dragged us in and forced us to reluctantly do things we'd never dreamed of before. The idea that the whole series could be reinterpreted as them gradually becoming subservient to us is fascinating.

One thought though on the "2084, not 1984" point - I think humanity's technological evolution during the course of the series was largely driven by necessity following the threat of the aliens, and I can't imagine that even by 2084 we could build up a capable enough armory without the invaders' motivating us.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Sept 12, 2012 12:10:24 GMT @gaga64 said:

One thought though on the "2084, not 1984" point - I think humanity's technological evolution during the course of the series was largely driven by necessity following the threat of the aliens, and I can't imagine that even by 2084 we could build up a capable enough armory without the invaders' motivating us.

Well, our real-world technology - particularly computers - has increased exponentially since the 1980s. In the fictional world, if in the 1980s we were able to build machines that took remote control of Transformers (The Icarus Theory, Cash and Carnage), rebooted their personalities (To a Power Unknown) and created virtual realities capable of seeming real to Cybertronian minds (Afterdeath, Pretender to the Throne), what could we do after a hundred years of hardware and software development?

In the fictional world, we were able to build one Circuit-Breaker suit and one Centurion pretty quick. Both were more than a match for an average Transformer. Suppose they went into mass-production? In the real-world we have robot drone military aircraft and nanotechnology now. What will we have 70 years from now?

Of course, G2 changed the rules, so that what appeared to be hundreds of Transformers became millions, and nukes and biological warfare were now story options, and my arguments cease to be valid. It was solely the original comic series that gave me the sense that the Transformers had as much to fear and learn from us as we from them.

Martin

[Marc Graham]

I must disagree with you Martin. Circuit breaker, Centurion and the like happened to be the ultimate exceptions humanity tossed up in response to the Transformers, much like how some Transformers had exceptional strength and ability compared to their peers, these human creations stood out, but neither was the gateway to worldwide human tech advancement and both still have significant weaknesses.

The whole remote control of Transformers (and Power unknown - which was definitely more by accident than design) is countered by the fact Bombshell was shown to easily take control of humans.

From my point of view Transformer technology was miles ahead of human tech and it was only when Transformers showed up human tech improved, possibly due to significant borrowing of ideas (many real world innovations are basically riffing off nature). Some vulnerable Transformers cut off from the rest would prove to be picked off by humanity, but when the inverse happens and a human superteam arrives in Cybertron they're seen to be vastly out of their depth.

Real-world Humanity may be producing smaller and faster processors, but we're no closer to making an AI worth squat and when it comes to things like space travel we're behind ourselves years ago. Humanity can raise its game when required, but if Cybertronians went for the jugular the cream of humanity would be wiped out and we'd struggle to ever gain a technological advantage in that case. From my experience - humanity has more than its fair share of mediocrity...

Marc.

[Deleted]

Humans would never be able to defend themselves against a full Decepticon attack. Centurion was created because Prof Morris was a genius but even then he was only able to take on average Transformers. Megatron defeated him when when he raised his game and obviously Galvatron crushed him.

RAAT and Circuit Breaker were able to capture the Cybertron Seven but failed when up against the Stunticons.

Decepticons are meant to be evil killers and intent on conquest so it stands to reason that they would commit murder. The Cybertonian Empire unleashed possibly its maximum fire power to destroy San Francisco. Again Jhiaxus was sadistic.

I always had the impression that there were meant to be millions of Transformers living on Cybertron but we only see a select few, normally the leaders and those closest to them in the stories. Most of the toys never appeared in any comic (although that's starting to change).

Darren

[The Doctor]

Sorry, Martin, couldn't disagree more. It's like we read two entirely different series. But that's fine. The fact that a 20+ year-old kids toy tie-in comic can evoke different interpretations of it speaks well of the source material, I think.

-Ralph

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Agreed. I can see how it can read completely differently depending on how many human civilian deaths you think occur and how many Transformers you think exist which we are never shown.

In both cases, I read it as if what we saw was what there was (a train blown up in T:2006, a few buildings flattened in Dinobot Hunt, a smashed-up fairground and some graffiti damage - odds and ends like that, but not much else in seven years, compared to the infinitely greater amount of death and destruction across the world in that time period due to human-human conflicts), and maybe one Transformer on Cybertron without a toy for each one that had a toy, all very low on energy. You could equally well read it as if there were hundreds of thousands of humans being killed off-screen by Decepticons, and hundreds of thousands of Decepticons on Cybertron waiting to pour across the Space Bridge.

I suppose if you go with logic, any spacefaring race has the potential to wipe out life on Earth by a simple orbital bombardment, and we'd have no means of defence. You don't need a race of transforming robots who fight a war over millions of years for that. The Cosmic Carnival could wipe out life on Earth if its crew wanted to. As Megatron proved in RG1, humans have weapons that can wipe out life on Earth themselves. (We've known this for half a century.)

I'm always keen to pursue the debate about the almost non-existent advance of technology on Cybertron over millions of years, compared to the rapid pace of human technology - and how the greatest advances for the Transformers (organic fuel conversion, Headmasters, Powermasters, Nucleon) were provided by scientists from other species - but this really isn't the thread for it.

Good point from Marc re: Bombshell. The Carwash of Doom was another example of Transformers controlling humans rather than vice versa.

Martin

[primenova]

I'm going to keep checking out the comic marts because the dealers just dumb anything in those 50p boxes. I have picked up IDW sketch covers for 50p & might find the Geoff Senior covers in them soon. #83 cover is classic Senior action shot.

[Jim]

I hope that happens, I'd really like to get the Senior 82 cover but not for upwards of £10.

[Jim]

I don't think I ever read the Autobot's mission being to save Earth - their mission was to save Cybertron - but that by inadvertently bringing their war to Earth they became responsible for limiting its effects there, and in RG1 it looks like they neglected that unforgivably. I suspect this plays into themes being explored here though, so I'm willing to see what happens.

The fate of the Ark was a loose end at the end of the original run which nagged me at the time - I never bought that Megatron, Ratchet etc. were dead or that Fort Max had the ability to defeat Galvatron definitively. Furman is sort of addressing that here, but the problem I'm having is the 20 year time jump. It's just too long when comparing with the pacing of the original series, considering the threads that are being picked up - it wouldn't have taken 20 years of stories for the Nucleon problem to be addressed, for example.

I'd have preferred directly picking up after 80 or a much shorter gap. I'm not convinced that making it contemporary brings anything, especially when the contemporary Earth is a wasteland - it's not like we have anything to relate to.

(I liked what they did with Quantum and Woody when they started it up again with what would have been the contemporary issue as if there had been all the issues in between - a bit impractical with a gap as big as RG1 though. And with Q&W they did then go back and start filling the gap.)

-Jim

[Bogatan]

Sept 13, 2012 10:10:02 GMT Jim said:

Furman is sort of addressing that here, but the problem I'm having is the 20 year time jump. It's just too long when comparing with the pacing of the original series, considering the threads that are being picked up - it wouldn't have taken 20 years of stories for the Nucleon problem to be addressed, for example.

While I always felt the original run was way to rushed. The war on Cybertron continued for 4 million years with only a small number of Transformers on the Ark missing. It's a ludicrous time frame, even if you assume 99% of the inhabitants went in to stasis for much of the time, the remaining one percent would have been trying to get the other side while they slept. In some form the war was active for 4 million years. Even as an 8 year old that made no sense to me and was the biggest obstacle to enjoying the series. More or less the same Autobots and Decepticons that would have been left in command were still in command after all that time, nothing much seemed to change.

The only remotely feasible way that I could ever make it work was if events played out in an incredibly slow time frame with months years or centuries between any major events. As the energon shortage got worse that may have become millenia. If thats true then its the 84-92 period that is moving far to fast, but that can be explained by the human interaction, by weight of numbers, by the incredibly short life span of humans the Transformers are required to operate at their pace. You cant wait a month to launch a rescue mission for Sparkplug if the decepticons will likely let him starve to death inh just a few weeks.

One of the first things the Decepticons do is go build a base, the autobots let them, (using the TFUK guide they take the oppurtunity to go to England etc). It suggests neither side rushes into action to swiftly, but the US army moves in as soon as they realise somethig is up and forces the Transformers to act.

It might even explain the rate they move through leaders, without the usual planning time they keep screwing up, encouraging or requiring new leaders to have a go.

In this context once they have departed Earth and found themselves living in something like paradise on the newly recovered Cybertron, 20 years really would be no time at all for them.

Not to say I completely buy the gap. I can go with the idea of Fort Max staying behind and acting as a guardian for Earth and just about stretch to the idea that they would assume no contact meant no problems, but that they would leave the Ark and that many deactivated Transformers behind. Or that some of the Transformers would not want to visit human friends or pay repect to the fallen. There needs to be a little more back story before I completely buy in to all that.

Sept 13, 2012 10:10:02 GMT Jim said:

I'm not convinced that making it contemporary brings anything, especially when the contemporary Earth is a wasteland - it's not like we have anything to relate to.
-Jim

Yeah certainly isn't adding much by being now. But anything less and I'm not sure its long enough for the Wreckers and others to feel bored, anything longer and the human characters are all getting really old.

[Jim]

I don't know, I can imagine the Wreckers getting bored quite easily!

Good point about the length of the war prior to Earth's involvement. I really like what's been done in the IDW comics lately with fleshing that out by hinting at different phases in the conflict. The original G1 comics and cartoon seemed to indicate that not much happened at all in that time, and we're now going the other way and getting tantalising glimpses at just how much really did happen. Except for Tailgate.

-Jim

[Grand Moff Muffin]

We know from Ratbat and others that Cybertron was desperately low on energy. Maybe they really did have to shut everyone and everything down for most of that four million year period, just leaving enough systems active to ensure neither side tried to pull a fast one on the other.

And Soundwave's signal from Earth made the Decepticons come back on-line and start trying to build a Space Bridge, while the Decepticons coming back on-line brought the Autobot resistance back on-line.

Martin

[primenova]

One thing I've never seen questioned at all - Limbo / upspace. I think the reason why Simon didn't use Limbo in the US title due to Limbo was being used in X-factor/ Uncanny X-men/ New Mutants at the time. But how different if Upspace where Ratchet & Megatron went is different to Limbo?

[Deleted]

Sept 13, 2012 14:28:27 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

We know from Ratbat and others that Cybertron was desperately low on energy. Maybe they really did have to shut everyone and everything down for most of that four million year period, just leaving enough systems active to ensure neither side tried to pull a fast one on the other.
Martin

I apologise for bringing it up (and realise it's not really relevant to the Marvel run) but didn't Dreamwave suggest that very thing in their "canon"?

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Sept 14, 2012 12:17:23 GMT @gaga64 said:

I apologise for bringing it up (and realise it's not really relevant to the Marvel run) but didn't Dreamwave suggest that very thing in their "canon"?

That's OK - this discussion needn't be limited to the Marvel run.

You may be right - I only read the first few Dreamwave comics.

Martin

[legios]

My understanding - and it is limited because I read other folks copies of the Dreamwave stuff (and usually had a pint or three thereafter) - is that this was indeed the case. There was some sort of "Great Shutdown" with everyone on Cybertron going off-line for most of the time that the Ark crew were shut down on Earth.

Karl

[Deleted]

Before Prime and his elite team boarded the Ark I assumed the war was reaching stalemate, maybe the Autobots were even winning and freeing Deception occupied territories.

We know from the short story Cybertron the Middle Years that Tranis took command of the Decepticons in Megatrons absence and he turned the tide. Under his leadership the Autobots were crushed and Cybertron was conquered. All that remained were pockets of resistance groups. I'm sure Fortress Maximus was meant to have succeeded Prime but ultimately under his leadership the main army was eventually defeated.

Percepter was leader of an Autobot group and that is only because he was a science officer and therefore the highest ranked Autobot left.

These events would have taken a very long time as there is no telling how many battles took place. For most Transformers the absence of both Prime and Megatron and their ships would have meant nothing. For the majority the war continued on Cybertron and on other worlds. At least thats how I saw it anyway.

Darren

[KnightBeat]

Sept 14, 2012 19:27:57 GMT legios said:

My understanding - and it is limited because I read other folks copies of the Dreamwave stuff (and usually had a pint or three thereafter) - is that this was indeed the case. There was some sort of "Great Shutdown" with everyone on Cybertron going off-line for most of the time that the Ark crew were shut down on Earth.

If memory serves, the Micromaster series was intended to lead into the Great Shutdown event on Cybertron. In the DW universe, the Micromasters were created in response to the dwindling fuel supplies on the planet. If DW had continued, I expect we would have seen this Shutdown event occurring and the Micromasters inheriting Cybertron for themselves.

TF Wiki page on the Great Shutdown

[Fortmax2020]

I always regarded the Marvel Great War as ongoing but with periods of stalemate. Autobot resistance cells operating under a post-Trannis Straxus Decepticon Cybertron were just the latest manifestation of that. Cell leaders such as Perceptor and Fortress Maximus emerged under need rather than any immediate line of succession. Xaron however as an original Council member is an exception.

Let's not forget that in the Marvel comics Cybertron is described as a world the size of Saturn and we know there was a lot more going on than just on its surface. Thats a lot of world with potentially a population on a scale that would dwarf our own. Losing a few million here and there in a surface 'war' might ultimately mean little for the planet as a whole.

[primenova]

Just picked up #83 - i'll have to look for #82 at Sheffield comic mart tomorrow.

Got the Geoff Senior cover for £2.99. Leeds comic shop.

[KnightBeat]

Who just bought the Regeneration One 100 page special for £1 and has two thumbs?

This guy!

[Andy Turnbull]

Good score. Which cover?

Andy

[KnightBeat]

Cover A - Andrew Wildman's Grimlock cover.

I'm surprised to have found it, to be honest. I wasn't able to track down a copy in the London comic shops (FPL and Orbital) when it was published and had considered buying it online before my financial situation took an unexpected turn for the worse.

[primenova]

That's a good bargin - I saw it at Leeds, i think it was about £5-7?

[Jaymz]

Oct 3, 2012 22:44:07 GMT KnightBeat said:

I wasn't able to track down a copy in the London comic shops (FPL and Orbital) when it was published

I still have loads in stock, but not for a quid.

[primenova]

Going by Simon's updated blog - i take it that the cover is from the vision, explained Hot Rod's different colouring.

[KnightBeat]

Oct 4, 2012 8:10:31 GMT Jaymz said:

Oct 3, 2012 22:44:07 GMT KnightBeat said:

I wasn't able to track down a copy in the London comic shops (FPL and Orbital) when it was published

I still have loads in stock, but not for a quid.

Really? I must have missed them somehow. Where are they kept in the store?

[Jaymz]

IDW back issues, there's a tab for ReGen, they're behind that.