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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 6, 2011 20:00:51 GMT
And as the film has been out for a week* now, do we still need spoiler tags? I guess not. THE AUTOBOTS WIN.Martin |
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 6, 2011 20:06:50 GMT
The wee head is identified as Igor in the comic and book.
-Ralph
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Post by duffism1981 on Jul 6, 2011 20:12:16 GMT
Apparently Igor is supposed to be Longhauls head.
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Post by jameso on Jul 7, 2011 1:41:58 GMT
And as the film has been out for a week* now, do we still need spoiler tags? I guess not. THE AUTOBOTS WIN.Martin Yeah, but Prime mercilessly hacks down anyone who has done him the slightest disservice, so at what cost to his soul?  |
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Post by Shockprowl on Jul 7, 2011 22:17:07 GMT
Do we have one of these? A general DOTM reaction thread? Couldn't find one, apols if one already exists and please feel free to Mod my ass. But just seen it and wanted to say what I thought, and hear what other Mother Hubbers thought.
Generally I thought it was very good indeed. Very good. A million times better than ROTF, but then again that wouldn't be difficult. There were plenty of bits and pieces I wasn't happy with, and thought could have been done better, but generally I thought it was a very good action romp.
A part I thought was done well in partic was the Sentinel Prime's a baddie twist. I wondered if he would be a baddie when I first found out he was in the film, but I admit I was taken in by the whole giving Optimus back the Matrix speech. Then the dramatic chase of him by the 'Cons when everyone thought they had fallen into Megatron's plan assured me that Sentinel was a goodie, and alittle vulnerable as well. I was shocked when he turned around and killed poor Ironhide. I had really been taken in! A very well handled twist (but then again I am mainly about the looks).
I was also pleased that the Twins were not in it. Or if they were, it was so brief I didn't realise they were there! God I hate the twins. Sorry to any Twins fans out there, but I freakin' hate them. Wheelie and his chumb annoyed me at first, but I warmed to them, were they actually killed in the crash? Shame if they were.
More human-ness again then robot-ness, but I thought all the human action/characterisation was well done, and Sam in partic was very likable, heroic and believable. The characters best performance. Carly did nothing for me, I'm sorry to say, not sure if was poor writing or poor acting or what, but she lifted right out for me. And the early 'sex appeal' shots of her were ridiculously gratuitous. The Sam/Carly thing took alot out of the Sam/Bumblebee relationship, and I felt far more should have been made of their friendship. A missed opportunity I feel.
Again Bumblebee couldn't talk damn it!!!! For God's sake! Bumblebee was very cool again in this film, but I think his characterisation suffers from not being able to speak.
Optimus kicked arse, but again I found his ruthlessness alittle too, I dunno, non-Autobot. But that's for a deeper discussion somewhere else.
I liked the Wreckers, didn't get the 'Q'character, was he supposed to be Wheeljack? Sad Ironhide was taken down, but it was a very dramatic moment. And Sentinel was very well done, and a interesting character, with a great voice of course! I'm not sure I liked the 'Needs of the many' speech though! Bit too cheesy at a very dramatic moment, perhaps!
Shockwave looked cool, but he wasn't very Shockwavey, meaning we didn't see him scheme or manipulate. He was just a weapon. A cool weapon, but just a weapon.
Megatron had a far better role than in ROTF where he was completely de-menaced by being The Fallen's number two. I wasn't completely happy with his role, but we saw a interesting side to him. There was way too little Optimus/Megatron interaction for me though, which I felt made their final battle alittle less enormic than it could have been. Starscream also had little to do.
Action/fight scenes were generally very good, although I didn't like Optimus being out of action for so long 'cos he was stuck in some cables! Rubbish moment alert on that one IMO!
But, all in all, I was very pleased and entertained, despite the lack of a certain Autobot Police car. Robot characterisation wasn't done enough again IMO, with poor Decepticon characterisation in partic, but the film was dramatic, well structured, and kept me on the edge of my seat. A very pleased handsome young Transformers fan I am!
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Jul 8, 2011 8:56:06 GMT
I was reminded last night about a thought I had while watching the film. You know the bit where Optimus has him arm chopped off? At that point, I thought, "Come back, it's just a flesh wound!"  |
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Post by skillex on Jul 8, 2011 9:15:30 GMT
Can anyone enlighten me as to why "Dino" and "Q" are referred to online and I think in the comics as "Mirage" and "Wheeljack"? Why do they seem to have 2 names each, G1 and Movie, rather than simply 1 or the other?
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Post by andrewbcalculating on Jul 8, 2011 9:39:02 GMT
I've not read this thread as I've not seen the film but Mark Kermode has called it "horrible, vile, vulgar, hideous, terrible acting".
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Post by andrewbcalculating on Jul 8, 2011 10:12:14 GMT
A lot of correspondence to the Simon Mayo and Mark Kermode show said that the film was sexist, racist and homophobic. Is this true?
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Jul 8, 2011 10:34:08 GMT
Sexist - yes, but that's hardly surprising from a Bay Transformers film.
Racist - I suppose it could be seen that way for a couple of reasons but I don't think it's intentionally so.
Homophobic - there's one scene in particular that that's probably referring to, but I would say that to call the film homophobic is an over-reaction.
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Post by jameso on Jul 8, 2011 12:18:49 GMT
I don't know if the film can really be described as any of those things, it certainly objectifies Rosie Huntington Whitely but, well, her entire lifestyle seems to revolve around that and it's probably making her loads of money so who is the joke really on. There's nothing in DOTM that says women are inferior, can't do this, always act in this way and so on, and the most senior government official role in the film is a woman.
I didn't even notice any reference to being gay.
To be honest, I'd say the film is too stupid to even be unintentionally sexist, racist or homophobic.
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Jul 8, 2011 14:54:31 GMT
I haven't read any of the criticisms but I would think they stem from the following.
Suggestions of sexism: from not only objectification of Carly but also from the one-dimensional characterisation of Mearing (though it's basically the same characterisation as Galloway in ROTF, so shouldn't be considered as sexist unless Galloway is also) and Simmons' male chauvinist attitude and actions towards her. Also notable is that these two are the only very prominent female characters.
Suggestions of racism: from the seemingly anti-Middle East stance displayed with the disregard of sovereign rights when attacking the power station (which is really a separate discussion on "popular" American attitudes towards and beliefs abouts the outside world, beyond the scope of this thread); from the only Asian character being unhinged (though there are a couple of American characters and a European character of equally dubious mental condition); from the Wreckers' "British" accents that are bound to have caused offence to some viewers just because they are so bad.
Suggestions of homophobia: from the Wang restroom scene. Branding this scene homophobic is incorrect; the scene involves misinterpretation of the given circumstances (incidentally, a common element in situational comedy) and happens to involve sexuality, which does not automatically equate to homophobia, which is the fear of or aversion to homosexuality.
Is the film intentionally sexist, racist or homophobic? No, I don't think so. At least, not any more so than attitudes and behaviours of individuals and society inherently are to some extent.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 8, 2011 17:28:11 GMT
Re: Optimus losing his arm, it was no big deal. He seemed able to shut off the pain quickly enough. Humans wouldn't worry about losing limbs if they could (a) shut off the pain, and (b) attach new limbs identical or better when they get home.
I agree that the film wasn't sexist, racist or homphobic. It just had a lot of juvenile humour, that's all. The unhinged guy in Sam's office was only Asian so that he could be called Wang, and in the Sam/Carly relationship, Sam was the one portrayed as insecure and the butt of most of the jokes. Back on race, Epps was as cool as ever.
Re: the Middle East raid, NEST was supposed to be an international outfit according to the previous film, and between RotF and DotM we have seen them invited into China and the Ukraine. Who's to say that the raid wasn't in line with UN resolutions, or that it didn't benefit the region? (According to Mearing, it wasn't sanctioned by the US government anyway.)
At any rate, I have no time for the complaints of anyone who disliked the first two films and was then stupid enough to watch the third hoping for something different (or looking forward to moaning the same moans yet again) - even if they happen to be critics who are paid to see it.
Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 8, 2011 17:34:40 GMT
A lot of correspondence to the Simon Mayo and Mark Kermode show said that the film was sexist, racist and homophobic. Is this true? |<o>| Yip, and so were the first two. -Ralph |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 8, 2011 17:55:36 GMT
I think that the women in all three films are generally portrayed as more intelligent, stable and resourceful than most of the men, who tend to be a combination of neurotic, stupid or at the beck and call of their hormones. (Maggie cracking the Decepticons' computer code in the first film, Mikaela capturing Wheelie in the second, Carly manipulating Megatron in the third.) That must of course be balanced against the sexual way they are portrayed visually.
Martin
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Post by jameso on Jul 9, 2011 2:03:34 GMT
Well, I saw the film again, this time in imax, tonight, and I did actually enjoy it more than first time. I have identified one major aspect of it that I don't like, and one that makes the other films retrospectively better, is that I really don't like the characterisation of the robots this time.
The Autobots seem to have lost the quiet, sombre dignity that I felt they had from the first film (Jazz aside perhaps). Bumblebee and Sam's interactions have lost their charm third time around. I do find Wheelie and Brains quite funny, but that's about it. I could just about get on board with vengeful kill 'em all Optimus Prime if it was made clear that he hated being put in this position where he felt all his enemies had to be stopped for once and for all for the greater good, but there's nothing along those lines at all. He even proclaims 'now you die' when about to take out Shockwave and then kills Megatron whilst Megatron tries to negotiate a truce. And then basically executes his commanding officier.
Three films in and any sense of awe and alien wonder about the Transformers has been lost now, too.
As for the Decepticons, their being downplayed is one of the lowest elements of the film for me. What a waste of Shockwave. Megatron is barely in it, and gets the same cheap death that Soundwave and Starscream get. Somewhere I feel there might exist a more considered script where not everyone dies, but once it was clear that this was the last film of these themes the decision was made to just kill off everyone. Weird thing is, the Decepticons off screen scheming with the space bridge pillars, hiding on the moon, tricking the Autobots into rescuing an unknown traitor is probably the most competent they've been in the movies.
I suppose Laserbeak is this film's version of Frenzy on the plane, Barricade chasing Sam or Soundwave grabbing Sam's parents, but he really didn't work for me for some reason, which was a shame.
Sentinel Prime is quite interesting, but his shift from hard talking but noble Autobot leader to I don't care about billions of innocent lives, I only want my own home planet saved is so out of left field he ends up with no real motivation.
Also really didn't like the bit where Prime basically says that they let the Decepticons take Chicago to prove to Earth's government that the Decepticons would never leave them alone.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 9, 2011 8:35:34 GMT
He even proclaims 'now you die' when about to take out Shockwave and then kills Megatron whilst Megatron tries to negotiate a truce. I misunderstood this scene the first time I saw it. They made a bad mistake in having the line "What would you be without me, Prime?" when there are two Primes present in the scene. The first time I saw the movie, I thought Megatron was talking to Optimus Prime (which didn't make much sense), and trying to negotiate a truce. The second time I saw it, I realised he was talking to _Sentinel_ Prime, and it made a lot more sense. Megatron was asserting himself as leader of the Deceps over Sentinel, and ignoring Optimus, who had lost an arm. But although Megatron said "What would you be without me, Prime?" to Sentinel, Optimus butted in and replied with "Let's find out," meaning "Let's find out what Sentinel is without Megatron." Which he then did, albeit only for a few seconds - then he was without both of them.  Martin |
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Jul 9, 2011 10:38:47 GMT
I took it to be Megatron speaking to Optimus, in the sense of what would Optimus be without his nemesis. Like Batman without the Joker or Superman without Lex Luthor.
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Post by jameso on Jul 9, 2011 10:47:19 GMT
Yeah, I interpreted it like Nigel has.
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Post by Jaymz on Jul 9, 2011 11:07:44 GMT
Saw it last night and was mostly bored, especially with the big end scene fight. And the lead up to that was somewhat tedious too.
One bit I liked was right at the beginning when they showed the war on Cybertron and there was a big shot of the planet with loads of little robots fighting all over it.
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Post by andrewbcalculating on Jul 9, 2011 14:47:42 GMT
One of the reactions that Mark Kermode had related to racism is the stereotyping. Apparently there are robots with Scottish and Irish accents (?) and Mark felt that the Scottish robot was deliberately portrayed as angry and that the Irish robot was deliberately portrayed as being drunk.
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Post by blueshift on Jul 10, 2011 7:41:41 GMT
I think I liked it better than the other films. The action sequences were certainly very well put together, but it felt like there were too many characters. Apart from Shia, the film starts with pretty much a different cast than it finishes with. Major characters vanish into the background and others appear out of nowhere to be major ones. This is a problem near the end, since we spend so much time focussing on Sam's adventures that it makes the other dozen major characters in the city look like morons, because when we cut back to them they've achieved absolutely nothing. For example, Prime appearently spends half the ending tangled in some wires like a chump, but somehow avoids being shot to death by the hundreds of Decepticons in the City.
How do those few brightly coloured autobots manage to avoid all those Decepticons so easily and get so close to the pillar? You'd have thought the Cons would be on them in an instant, given how much firepower they took to the party.
Only nine Autobots? Really? Where did all the chaps from ROTF go? Did they send Jolt, Skids and Mudflap back to their home planet already?
I'd have preferred a lot more moralising towards the end, since once the space bridge starts transporting, the Autobots are literally working to destroy their homeworld.
Also holy crap Optimus was a sadistic monster yet again, no two ways about it.
And I felt ill at all that sexualisation.
But overall it was better than the last two I think, helped by the fact that they actually tried to make it /about/ something (the idea that Sam is struggling to find his place in the world) even if that fell apart a bit near the end. Bay did a mostly excellent job, it's not his job to write the damned thing.
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Post by Bogatan on Jul 10, 2011 10:24:32 GMT
I took it to be Megatron speaking to Optimus, in the sense of what would Optimus be without his nemesis. Like Batman without the Joker or Superman without Lex Luthor. I saw it the same way as Martin. Megatron was pretty much round the bend at this point and has seen Sentinel claim command of the Decepticons and wasn't happy. Optimus just sees the chance to take em both out while they are distracted. Dialogue really doesn't help though. |
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Post by blueshift on Jul 10, 2011 10:29:39 GMT
Optimus just sees the chance to take em both out while they are distracted. Dialogue really doesn't help though. They weren't distracted, they were surrendering. I mean holy crap, that is murder and a war crime. That ending annoys me more and more. |
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Post by Bogatan on Jul 10, 2011 10:45:17 GMT
Sentinel had just ripped Optimus' arm off and was ready to finish him when Megatron (who just in there time on Earth has already killed Optimus once and nearly done him in 2 more times) distracted Sentinel. Optimus then takes advantage and kills Megatron, he's down to one arm facing 2 opponents both capable of killing him so fully taking advantage and killing Megatron makes sense. Then he executes Sentinel, thats more questionable, but I'd say of the two of them Sentinel is still in better shape and presumably still has some decepticons available to him so trying to take him prisoner would have been a big risk without knowing how the rest of the fight is going.
Even if he had been taken prisoner the only outcome I can imagine would be some kind of death sentence/spark extraction anyway.
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Post by blueshift on Jul 10, 2011 11:04:22 GMT
Sentinel had just ripped Optimus' arm off and was ready to finish him when Megatron (who just in there time on Earth has already killed Optimus once and nearly done him in 2 more times) distracted Sentinel. Optimus then takes advantage and kills Megatron, he's down to one arm facing 2 opponents both capable of killing him so fully taking advantage and killing Megatron makes sense. Then he executes Sentinel, thats more questionable, but I'd say of the two of them Sentinel is still in better shape and presumably still has some decepticons available to him so trying to take him prisoner would have been a big risk without knowing how the rest of the fight is going. Even if he had been taken prisoner the only outcome I can imagine would be some kind of death sentence/spark extraction anyway. I saw it last night, it's still very fresh in the mind. Megatron was in an awful state at the end of the film and whilst I'm sure he was just trying to trick Prime, he was open to dealing with Sentinal earlier in the film. But Prime just ripped his spine out. That's a poor final battle as it it. Sentinal was definately down and badly wounded, crawling about on the floor defenselessly. At this point, even with both Megatron and Sentinal, Prime was in absolutely no danger and the battle was over. Fact is, I'm sure had they been captured they would be facing a death sentence. But that wasn't for Optimus Prime to decide in such a brutal manner. Earlier in the film we had seen a scene in which the Decepticons murdered an autobot who was defenseless and begging for their life, and that scene was meant to cement the Decepticons as villains. Then Prime does that exact same thing. They may have deserved it, but good guys should be better than stooping to such low levels, with no moral reflections on these actions at all. Bob B had it right in Prime's original bio: "Otherwise, the only weakness he could be accused of having is being too compassionate and concerned about the safety of others. He would be a more effective military commander if he were more ruthless, but then he wouldn't be Optimus Prime." Movie Prime is a more effective military commander, but he surely isn't any sort of hero, and that is what the film paints him as. |
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Post by Shockprowl on Jul 10, 2011 11:55:47 GMT
Yeah, I think you're right, Blue', very questionable to say the least that Optimus killed a defenseless prisoner.
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Post by Jaymz on Jul 10, 2011 12:32:46 GMT
Movie Prime is a more effective military commander, but he surely isn't any sort of hero, and that is what the film paints him as. The bit where they pretended to leave earth and then popped up later and Prime says something along the lines of "we had to show the humans that the decepticons couldn't trusted," after letting hundreds/thousands of humans be killed, that was very un-Prime to me, but very fitting for movie Prime. And the group shot of Autobots at the end with the American flag flapping behind them was embarrassing. |
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Post by blueshift on Jul 10, 2011 12:49:22 GMT
Movie Prime is a more effective military commander, but he surely isn't any sort of hero, and that is what the film paints him as. The bit where they pretended to leave earth and then popped up later and Prime says something along the lines of "we had to show the humans that the decepticons couldn't trusted," after letting hundreds/thousands of humans be killed, that was very un-Prime to me, but very fitting for movie Prime. And the group shot of Autobots at the end with the American flag flapping behind them was embarrassing. Yes, that was bizarre. I'm not sure what they really achieved there either. I mean, they turned up all brightly coloured in the middle of the day, so it's not like they gained the element of surprise on the Decepticons, or if they intended on it, they wasted it. That said, somehow a city full of Decepticons missed the opportunity of shooting Optimus Prime, who spent 20 minutes helplessly dangling from the skyline, trapped in wires, so who knows. |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 10, 2011 16:12:54 GMT
Because of the way I interpret Megatron's last lines of dialogue (trying to replace Sentinel but in no way offering a truce to Optimus, or relenting on the plan for Cybertron), I see it that Prime killed him in battle, but executed Sentinel in cold blood. Only the second of the two deaths to I see as incompatible with the original Marvel characterisation of Optimus, who would rather let himself be blown up and let Megatron conquer Earth than have Megatron die but have to live with having cheated in a computer game.
Movie Prime's ruthlessness reminds me of the way he took out a lot of Decepticons in the G2 comic series (particularly when in issue #1 escaping from the ship of Jhiaxus, who as I recall had no wish to harm his prisoners - and also when he offed Tantrum in a later issue).
All the Decepticons he killed would have been executed after trial for sure, on account of the numbers of humans they had killed and/or efforts to wipe out humanity (in particular by destroying the sun in RotF). But that doesn't make it right, and certainly doesn't make it worthy of the original Optimus written by Bob B.
On the other hand, in a Bob B story, both Megatron's and Sentinel's tiny brain modules would probably have survived intact (even with the axe through the head), allowing them to return in due course.
Martin
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