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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 30, 2014 18:15:07 GMT
Just been thinking more about this while reading up on Avengers and X-Men comics from the early '80s, and Secret Wars in which Spider-Man gets his black suit which he then has in Transformers #3...
For fans of Marvel comics of this era, to what extent do you think of (a) the TFs as existing in the Marvel universe, and (b) Marvel universe characters existing in the classic TF comic universe?
It seems to me that when TFs was intended to be a 4-issue mini-series, it was clearly intended to be one more weird phenomenon in the hotch-potch Marvel universe, and fitted in fine along with all the other weirdness that had been going on in multiple parallel and occasionally interacting comic series for decades. The TF comics featured Spider-Man, Nick Fury and S.H.I.E.L.D. and made oblique references to the Secret Wars and Godzilla.
Then the Savage Land appeared in several US TF issues, with reference to Ka-Zar, and was still part of the TF universe as late as the 1990 UK annual's 'Destiny of the Dinobots'.
I also gather that Roxxon Oil ('The Icarus Theory') was a rival to Stark Industries, that Circuit-Breaker appeared in Secret Wars II (?), and that Death's Head ended up in stories with the Fantastic Four and X-Men (although he could have entered the Marvel universe after being thrown through time).
The Neo-Knights also established that mutants existed and were persecuted in the TF universe.
On the other hand, the US TF comic was definitely in the same universe as the G.I. Joe comic at least up until just before G2 (i.e. Joe #142).
And Death's Head also met Doctor Who.
So OK, they're all part of the same multiverse, that much is easy to see, but my question really is how much of the TF comic series (if any) do you think of as being in the mainstream Marvel superhero universe, and how much of the mainstream Marvel universe do you imagine occurring parallel to TFs after US #3?
Can you see the whole of US #1-80 occurring in the main Marvel timeline? Or is the TF universe devoid of all superheroes except Spider-Man and the Neo-Knights?
Martin
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 30, 2014 18:24:40 GMT
I really don't see it as being part of the Marvel universe of the classic comics (616 as it known), it's an alternate reality which has some things in.
I'd once wanted to look at the Marvel Universe as if Transformers was properly entrenched in it in the same way that Rom was and see how things would be different. G.B. Blackrock would obviously be out as Tony Stark would be used, he is quite clearly a Stark analogue. You could see S.H.I.E.L.D. being involved and the folks behind Project: Wideawake would want Transformer technology as part of the Sentinel Program.
Ka-Zar would have some involvement - after all no bugger retrieved the Dinobot's shuttle that they used to land in the Savage Land 4 million years ago, or did Magneto already use it as part of his citadel.
The Avengers would have ended up having to square up against Robot Master...
Lots of possibilities.
Andy
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 30, 2014 18:30:35 GMT
I hear you... It's just that black suit of Spider-Man's... which implies Secret Wars in... which implies everything else in, at least at the start of the TF series.
As for how much of TFs is in the Marvel universe, surely The Complete Works (the 4-issue mini-series with the happy ending instead of Shockwave arriving) could be in?
The Dinobots' shuttle was still in the Savage Land in the 1990 annual.
Maybe the full TF universe is one in which Magneto doesn't return from the Secret Wars for some reason. While in the full Marvel universe he puts a stop to them (notably Shockwave) early on in proceedings.
Martin
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 30, 2014 18:35:00 GMT
Oh I can see why it feels like that, but there could be any number of ways that this universe's Spider-Man got a snazzy black alien costume. I do think that Spidey, Fury and Godzilla are part of this universe although they seem to vanish very quickly!
Oh yes if you took The Complete Works on it's own then yes absolutely that's a nice fit into a Marvel universe.
Dammit Martin, I find myself thinking about doing The Complete Works V3 now and what would happen after that happy ending...
ARGH!
Andy
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 30, 2014 18:37:17 GMT
I hear you... It's just that black suit of Spider-Man's... which implies Secret Wars in... which implies everything else in, at least at the start of the TF series. As for how much of TFs is in the Marvel universe, surely The Complete Works (the 4-issue mini-series with the happy ending instead of Shockwave arriving) could be in? The Dinobots' shuttle was still in the Savage Land in the 1990 annual. Maybe the full TF universe is one in which Magneto doesn't return from the Secret Wars for some reason. While in the full Marvel universe he puts a stop to them (notably Shockwave) early on in proceedings. Martin I'd forgotten the shuttle was still there, but yes in a Marvel universe some mad person would have taken it by now and tried to seize control of the Savage Land with it! Andy |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 30, 2014 18:44:51 GMT
Dammit Martin, I find myself thinking about doing The Complete Works V3 now and what would happen after that happy ending... ARGH! Yes! You can do that after you've finished Another Time and Place... The Transformers story cut short if Magneto or Ka-Zar or S.H.I.E.L.D. or the Avengers stopped Shockwave on his way from Antarctica to Oregon:  Martin |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 30, 2014 18:46:52 GMT
But of course.
After Auto Assembly I shall be gettting back in the saddle for ATAP you will be pleased to know.
Andy
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 30, 2014 18:58:12 GMT
Marvel always used to set it's licensed titles in the Marvel Universe where possible. Star Wars, Star Trek and BSG being the obvious exceptions.
When GIJOE came along it too looked like it was within the Marvel Universe...... Until Larry Hama very clearly said it wasn't.
Which leaves us with a problem....
Up until GIJOE vs TFs, Transformers appears to be in the Marvel Universe: Spider Man etc in TF3, Savage Land in TF4 and Circuit Breaker's Secret Wars II appearance.
After GIJOE va TFs you have a problem cos Transformers can't be in both.
Marvel UK's Transformers presents an alternative origin for Goldbug neatly solving the problem. That's only *slightly* complicated by the Action Force crossover.
Of course it all goes to hell in a hand cart when the GIJOE c140/G2 crossover occurs cementing G2 as occurring in the GIJoe universe!
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jul 30, 2014 19:06:03 GMT
So basically, Phil, you're saying that the US TF comic (with its G.I. Joe crossovers) doesn't fit so well into the Marvel superhero universe, but the UK TF comic ending with 'Another Time and Place' (not G2), and with Death's Head spinning off into FF and X-Men comics, fits a lot better. The TPBs on my shelf are currently arranged so that 'Avengers: Absolute Vision' and 'Secret Wars' are followed by the non-G2 Titan TF hardbacks (which omit the G.I. Joe crossover), then IDW's UK Classics series (which in a few weeks' time should have Death's Head vanishing in 'The Legacy of Unicron') and then Death's Head Volumes 1 and 2, including an FF crossover. All looks pretty smooth and sequential to me...  Of course, on another shelf I have all my G.I. Joe TPBs including the one with TF crossovers. They'll have to play by themselves. Martin |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 30, 2014 19:12:08 GMT
So basically, Phil, you're saying that the US TF comic (with its G.I. Joe crossovers) doesn't fit so well into the Marvel superhero universe, but the UK TF comic ending with 'Another Time and Place' (not G2), and with Death's Head spinning off into FF and X-Men comics, fits a lot better. Yup! But there again we always knew the UK version was better! ;-) |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 30, 2014 22:55:14 GMT
Also the UK Action Force has a different Flint (English) compared to GI Joe's Flint.
Andy
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 31, 2014 6:20:03 GMT
There's no way the Action Force crossover exists in the the GI Joe universe so there is the very real possibility that Action Force might exist in the Marvel Universe which will no doubt please Ralph no end.
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Post by blueshift on Jul 31, 2014 6:29:17 GMT
There's no way the Action Force crossover exists in the the GI Joe universe so there is the very real possibility that Action Force might exist in the Marvel Universe which will no doubt please Ralph no end. What are you talking about Phil, Action Force and GI Joe were separate organisations that later merged into GI Joe the Action Force. There was that little one page advert that told me so!! |
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Nigel
Fusilateral Quintro Combiner
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Post by Nigel on Jul 31, 2014 10:29:52 GMT
After GIJOE va TFs you have a problem cos Transformers can't be in both... Of course it all goes to hell in a hand cart when the GIJOE c140/G2 crossover occurs cementing G2 as occurring in the GIJoe universe! You've left out that single panel between the two crossovers, in which Nick Fury appears, putting Transformers back in the Marvel Universe.  |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 31, 2014 17:59:15 GMT
What panel is that?
Andy
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Nigel
Fusilateral Quintro Combiner
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Post by Nigel on Jul 31, 2014 18:47:48 GMT
Oh, my mistake, it was way back in issue 3 US. I could have sworn it was during the Decepticon Civil War in New Jersey. I must be getting old. tfwiki.net/wiki/Nick_FuryAt the time, I read Transformers as a part of the Marvel Universe, because of the various crossovers and cameos. The old "Stan Lee presents" and the simple fact of it being published by Marvel was no doubt part of it too; I think I just accepted it as fact and never thought about it any other way. Now, I suppose I view it as "part of the Marvel Universe as far as I'm concerned, even though I know it's not really and I'm sure there's plenty of mainstream Marvel stuff that actually doesn't fit anyway". |
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Post by Death's Head on Aug 3, 2014 12:05:36 GMT
Then there's the fact that Combat Colin is explicitly part of the Marvel Universe...  Yeesh! |
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Post by Jaymz on Aug 3, 2014 13:40:27 GMT
Mainstream Marvel Universe is Earth 616. Marvel US TF and GI Joe is Earth 91274Marvel UK TF [and Action Force?] is Earth 120185. The only aspects of the Marvel Universe that we can guarantee exist in the TF Universe is what we're shown in the TF comics. Why was Spider-Man never seen again after issue #3? There's a fanfic waiting to happen. The TFs do not exist in the main Marvel Universe, but Death's Head has jumped across multiple universes after Legacy of Unicron and ended up there. |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Aug 3, 2014 17:13:54 GMT
Mainstream Marvel Universe is Earth 616. Marvel US TF and GI Joe is Earth 91274Marvel UK TF [and Action Force?] is Earth 120185. The only aspects of the Marvel Universe that we can guarantee exist in the TF Universe is what we're shown in the TF comics. Why was Spider-Man never seen again after issue #3? There's a fanfic waiting to happen. The TFs do not exist in the main Marvel Universe, but Death's Head has jumped across multiple universes after Legacy of Unicron and ended up there. Ah, very interesting articles. I'd forgotten that Reed Richards, the Fantastic Four and the Dazzler were all referenced in the early TF comics, besides Spider-Man, the Daily Bugle, Nick Fury, Dum-Dum, SHIELD, Godzilla, Ka-Zar, the Savage Land and Roxxon Oil. That makes quite a hefty list. I accept that the main Marvel Universe as told in comics in later years may never have had TFs on Earth, if that has been stated with authority, but it still also seems to me that in the absence of any alternative backstory to all the above listed Marvel characters, the Marvel comics prior to the TFs' awakening are the prime contender for their backstory in the TF universe as well as in the main Marvel universe. In fact, as drawn to my attention by one of the above articles, page 1 of TF US #8 "Repeat Performance" states categorically that "Events in this story precede Avengers #257." So still 8 issues in, the editors at the time considered the universes to be the same, and I must say I consider their authority to be greater than that of any later editors to say what was what at that time. So it does appear to me that at least until TF US #8, the Marvel superhero comics would also describe events in the TF universe. Martin |
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Rich
Protoform
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Post by Rich on Aug 4, 2014 12:59:18 GMT
A very interesting thread! I've nothing interesting to add myself but just wanted to say I've enjoyed the conversation.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Aug 6, 2014 19:12:03 GMT
In fact, as drawn to my attention by one of the above articles, page 1 of TF US #8 "Repeat Performance" states categorically that "Events in this story precede Avengers #257." So still 8 issues in, the editors at the time considered the universes to be the same, and I must say I consider their authority to be greater than that of any later editors to say what was what at that time. So it does appear to me that at least until TF US #8, the Marvel superhero comics would also describe events in the TF universe. And indeed, in Avengers #257, Ka-Zar remarks, "There are a lot of screwy things buried around here."  Martin |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Aug 23, 2014 7:29:46 GMT
My education as to Marvel superheroes' links to Transformers continues with the TPB of Secret Wars II. Only half-way through, but am finding it more interesting than the first SW, and I've passed the Transformers crossover issue. Makes sense that a comic edited by Bob Budiansky in 1985 would reference Bob's TF saga. But I found it striking that this was a mainstream Marvel superheroes comic which was crossing over into issues of Spider-Man, Avengers, FF, X-Men, Hulk, Daredevil, Rom, Alpha Flight, Thor, Micronauts and many other titles, and featured Circuit-Breaker talking about events that happened in the pages of Transformers, with a footnote referring the reader to that title. There was no multiverse element to what the Beyonder was doing in Secret Wars #3, making it very clear that at that time, at least up to TF #9, Transformers were a part of the main Marvel universe. It may have been erased from Marvel history by the decisions of later editors, but at the time, there it was. It makes me wonder how things would have been different if one of the issues of Transformers had been a SWII crossover issue featuring the Beyonder. Instead of a G.I. Joe crossover mini-series in 1986, we might have had a TFs/Avengers mini-series giving the origin of Goldbug... I must say, Secret Wars II explains very convincingly why the Avengers and co. didn't bother get involved with Shockwave taking over Blackrock's oil rig and aerospace plant. Compared to the Beyonder, the Decepticons are a minor league threat and the superheroes would be too busy with more important stuff that threatens the existence of the universe and suchlike.  "Enough! Perhaps... in controlling everyone I have somehow extinguished the "spark" Circuit-Breaker spoke of, making all humans like the automatons she despises - slavish to my will as though it were a program!" - The Beyonder, SWII #3, shortly before returning everyone's free will Martin |
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Post by Shockprowl on Mar 3, 2015 10:23:25 GMT
What a great thread. There's so much on The Hub that I don't get chance to read.
As a side question, what about the New Avengers/IDW Transformers crossover event?! Where were the Avengers et al in All Hail Megatron (PUTTUP!)?! WHY DIDN'T THEY SAVE US?!?!! Or does everyone just pretend that crossover didn't happen now?! (with good reason, even though I secretly don't mind it 'cos Prowl has some good bits in it!).
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 3, 2015 11:25:55 GMT
What a great thread. There's so much on The Hub that I don't get chance to read. As a side question, what about the New Avengers/IDW Transformers crossover event?! Where were the Avengers et al in All Hail Megatron (PUTTUP!)?! WHY DIDN'T THEY SAVE US?!?!! Or does everyone just pretend that crossover didn't happen now?! (with good reason, even though I secretly don't mind it 'cos Prowl has some good bits in it!). It was sort of forgotten but it was followed up in Spotlight Ramjet. recent issues of what was RID have picked up on some details. I didn't mind it. It was like an old school comic crossover. Andy |
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 3, 2015 15:33:11 GMT
It was fine for what it was. I didn't understand why TF fans on boards were going so mental about it at the time until I remembered that most of them didn't read other comics so the team-up conventions were lost on them.
Ironically considering how big the Avengers movies are now and with the TF movie series going strong it could arguably sell gangbusters if it had come out now.
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 3, 2015 15:34:13 GMT
It was fine for what it was. I didn't understand why TF fans on boards were going so mental about it at the time until I remembered that most of them didn't read other comics so the team-up conventions were lost on them. Ironically considering how big the Avengers movies are now and with the TF movie series going strong it could arguably sell gangbusters if it had come out now. -Ralph Yeah, if it was out now it would sell gangbusters, and to be honest would probably have a much higher profile creative team as well. Andy |
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Post by blueshift on Mar 3, 2015 18:09:20 GMT
It was fine for what it was. I didn't understand why TF fans on boards were going so mental about it at the time until I remembered that most of them didn't read other comics so the team-up conventions were lost on them. Ironically considering how big the Avengers movies are now and with the TF movie series going strong it could arguably sell gangbusters if it had come out now. -Ralph There's nothing wrong with complaining about something because it's awful! Just because all team-up books tend to follow the same terrible plot (there is a misunderstanding and the good guys fight and then they all team up against the bad guys) doesn't make it a good thing! |
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 3, 2015 18:18:36 GMT
There are certain traditions is comics that must be upheld!
-Ralph
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Post by inflatabledalek on Mar 3, 2015 20:57:41 GMT
What's interesting is that the UK either didn't get or chose to ignore the memo on the "Decoupling" from the main Marvel continuity the American book went through, Rooxon and the Daily Bugle show up in The Icarus Theory for example.
Then there's Death's Head of course, the idea he went to another Universe is a later retcon, the intent very much at the time was Transformers was part of the shared Marvel UK Universe, including all their titles, licensed or not. The Cold Day in Hell Doctor Who trade has some interesting musings from Richard Starkings about his efforts to create this without the various licensees noticing he was doing it. Though Transformers missed out on the big "Stealth" crossover with those shape-shifting aliens that popped up in a lot of titles (including Combat Colin).
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 3, 2015 22:17:31 GMT
I think chose to ignore would be closer to the mark.
It's a shame we couldn't have had an outright old school Marvel crossover with the UK material. Can you imagine the sheer joy of Transformers vs Zoids! Silverman vs Circuit Breaker...
Andy
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