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Post by Bogatan on May 3, 2016 18:29:54 GMT
Spoiler
I know Tony or someone says "this isnt the world council", but it sort of is. If Steve isnt going to be able to sit back if the UN (or whoever is meant to oversee them) decides to do something so stupid again then he cant sign the agreement. The fact that they order a kill on sight order against Bucky means they get their first call wrong. How do you trust them when the really bad stuff happens.
So in that respect He's right not to sign, without knowing who will be overseeing them now, in 5 years or 10 years signing is madness. |
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Post by The Doctor on May 3, 2016 18:35:24 GMT
No-one was 'right' because the plot to do with that vanished halfway through the film to be replaced by an idiotic supervillain plan!
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on May 3, 2016 18:58:43 GMT
Not really. Signing wouldn't prevent him from tearing it up later / retiring if circumstances changed. Everyone's judgement is imperfect, but I trust democratic oversight more than a vigilante who thinks he has moral superiority. Living in democratic society rather than anarchy is about compromise.
If you followed Steve's logic, none of the men and women who join the army, the police, the fire service, the ambulance service, etc. should sign contracts to follow the rules of law and work for the government because a dictator might conceivably take power in 5 or 10 years' time. Rather they should all act as rogue agents. Army units should cross into any country they feel like to fight anyone they see as bad guys, without any legal mandate to do so. And forget about due process and the court justice system.
If the public don't like the fact that the Hulk smashed up a city when under the Scarlet Witch's influence, or that Thor lets his brother bring alien armies to Earth, or that Iron Man loosed Ultron on them when trying to create something to stop alien invasions, or that Captain America cares more about his serial-killing war buddy than the families of his victims ("The safest hands are still our own" - yeah, right), and they ask their government to keep the Avengers on a leash... then I think that's not an unreasonable request. Tony, Rhodey and the Vision see that.
The authorities gave orders to kill Bucky on sight because he's lethally dangerous. The last time they saw him he was slaughtering loyal SHIELD pilots trying to take off to help Captain America stop Hydra. He killed them before they could think, let alone speak. No-one knows now that Bucky's mind control has worn off. But since it has, he has had plenty of opportunity to contact the authorities, explain his position, surrender himself peacefully, clear up the numerous murders he remembers committing, give the victims' families closure, express his remorse, and take his chance with the justice system. He's done none of that.
This is why they ordered shoot-to-kill on Bucky rather than try to arrest him: Who wouldn't? Martin |
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Post by Baron B of Triple B on May 3, 2016 19:36:56 GMT
The argument is the government shouldn't be getting absolute power over them to start with, not that they can talk about the contracts in a few years time to see if they can get a better one. Hint:You never can.
And one of things Cap is worried about is becoming part of an army driven by an agenda, that's what happens when you sign that contract to join the army. You do what they tell you, whether it's right or wrong. The point with the Avengers is they're meant to step in when the world needs them to, not when a couple of people have a square go over who runs the country.
What if the government had decided not to unleash them on Loki and the Chitauri? Even the nuke they sent wouldn't have stopped him and would've killed more civilians than the Avengers did. What if the Government thought Ultrons android army was a good idea and helped him set that up then we're too late to stop him when they realised he was a bit of a dick?
What Cap is saying that people may get inadvertently killed while we're trying to save them but if we didn't then they'd be a lot worse. Even in Civil War, the explosion that ends up going through the building would've ended far worse if Scarlet Witch hadn't intercepted him because the street was mobbed. Should they just walk away in that situation in case they injure people further down the road?
And if you go ahead and kill someone without proving guilt, let's not forget he was innocent in this case, then you're a mercenary yourself and worse than what you say you're trying to control. (The Avengers) |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on May 3, 2016 19:45:13 GMT
You must admit that when the Avengers do beat the bad guys, they're often incredibly lucky to do so and there's no guarantee they'll be so lucky next time.
Loki and Ultron both should really have won.
Martin
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Post by Baron B of Triple B on May 3, 2016 19:48:56 GMT
And without the Avengers the world would've been completely screwed.
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Post by Bogatan on May 3, 2016 19:55:18 GMT
Spoiler
Not really. Signing wouldn't prevent him from tearing it up later / retiring if circumstances changed. Everyone's judgement is imperfect, but I trust democratic oversight more than a vigilante who thinks he has moral superiority. Living in democratic society rather than anarchy is about compromise. Martin Spoiler
I dont mean hes right right, just that as a man who values honour, honestly and all that stuff he cant sign it in good faith because he knows there are circumstances in which he would have to break his word. At the same time he cant retire, because he wouldnt really be retired, just waiting till hes needed. He'd rather be viewed a a criminal than lie. At least that was my reading. I'll be rewatching it this week. Will have to see if my view changes.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on May 3, 2016 20:07:48 GMT
Well, if Steve Rogers wants to operate outside the law he should step out of the public spotlight and stop being Captain America - be someone in the shadows like Daredevil or Batman instead. You can't be above the law and a symbol / role model for a democratic country at the same time. It's one or the other.
Maybe he realised that when he gave up his shield at the end of the movie. Martin |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on May 3, 2016 20:14:02 GMT
It was never his shield! Gasp. |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on May 3, 2016 20:18:13 GMT
The shield's even worse than he is. Never mind the laws of the land, it refuses to obey the laws of physics!
Martin
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Post by Toph on May 7, 2016 2:05:56 GMT
Finally open here.
Non spoiler thoughts.
I will *never* again complain about the shaky camera work in the first TF movie, because Captain America: Civil War has the worst cinematography I’ve ever seen. 
It gave me a migraine, and I almost left twice due to motion sickness. And I have *never* suffered motion sickness before, from anything.
Best characters: Black Panther, Spiderman, and Antman.
Best parts: the various avengers scenes.
Worst parts (beside every scene filmed on location during a 9.3 earthquake): Bucky. Literally all of Bucky. Only parts where he was at least tolerable, were his interactions with Sam.
I now can't wait for the Panther and Spiderman movies.
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Post by jameso on May 10, 2016 3:01:27 GMT
Isn't it odd how only a couple of weeks apart we have rival studio superhero films where the machinations of a non super powered villain lead to the heroes fighting each other, with lots of empthasis on collateral damage and characters being motivated by what has happened to their parents? Massive co-incidence? Cultural trends converging? One of the them saw the others script and reacted accordingly?
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Post by Shockprowl on May 18, 2016 18:19:28 GMT
SEEN IT! LOVED IT! Yeah, it wasn't perfect, but it was a darn good romp. You can analyse the hows and the whys and the do-you-mind-if-I-don'ts 'till the cows come home. There are plot holes. But generally speaking a darn good Marvel action-a-rama. So much about it that I loved. Spiderman. Antman. Vision. Cap' and Iron Man were excellent I thought. I didn't guess the plot twist at the end at all so was totally surprised by it. I'm not convinced about how they did Zemo, but I love that actor so much I can let it go. Yeah, great stuff!
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Post by Toph on May 18, 2016 18:58:14 GMT
You can argue as much as you want about Steve, Tony, Bucky, and T'challa, but I think it's indisputable that the *real* hero of Civil War was Antman's unbridled enthusiasm.
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Post by Shockprowl on May 18, 2016 20:13:19 GMT
Rudd/Antman is brilliant.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on May 18, 2016 23:11:15 GMT
Saw it for a 2nd time the other night. It irked me a lot less this time but still some massive plot holes in it.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on May 19, 2016 5:55:25 GMT
Ant-Man was good, Spider-Man was better.
Martin
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Post by legios on May 19, 2016 13:47:14 GMT
I would actually agree with that. Despite Spiderman being at the top of my list for things that needed to be cut from the film. The actor, and the writing nailed the essence of Spiderman in a way which has been missed by the last five-or-so attempts. The problem is I wanted to see both aspects out on their own where they weren't contributing to the bloat and sprawl miring a film which had already bogged down.
Karl
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jun 4, 2016 15:52:43 GMT
Hands down the best cinematic Spider-Man, has the nervous wise-cracking that was missing from both Maguire and Garfield.
Andy
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 11, 2016 11:32:37 GMT
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Post by The Doctor on Jun 12, 2016 8:55:36 GMT
Utter nonsense. Nicholas Hammond is 70's Spidey!
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Jun 12, 2016 8:59:56 GMT
That film should exist. Imagine that. My god that would be brilliant. Not sure about Burt Reynolds though.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 12, 2016 14:08:04 GMT
No way does Hawkeye deserve to be played by Clint Eastwood.
Nick Fury, maybe.
(But he's not in it.)
Martin
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Post by Pinwig on Oct 29, 2016 22:30:16 GMT
It being I got so into reading the Panini Civil War title, I thought I'd finish that before watching this, so I just have for the first time. Really impressed with the way they re-tuned the original idea to fit the ongoing MCU. I've just about got my head round enough of this now to have loads of 'oh I see what you did there!' moments. Really excellent film.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 16, 2017 7:31:57 GMT
Team Thor Part 2!
Martin
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Mar 8, 2017 18:56:22 GMT
My mind is blown. The above is just an extract from Team Thor Part 2. The full Team Thor Part 2 is on the Doctor Strange Blu-ray and includes Thor using Mjolnir to destroy Darryl's Connect 4 and Thor using Mjolnir to make the toilet his own private toilet and Thor hiring a servant whose main task will be to get a job and pay Thor's rent for him. If Darryl does not appear in Ragnarok I will be very sad. Martin |
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