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Post by The Doctor on Aug 28, 2018 7:58:54 GMT
It's looking like Cyberverse is using all the same nostalgia characters the other nostalgia lines are using. I do worry that TF as a property is vanishing up its own bum.
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Aug 28, 2018 8:20:10 GMT
I think that is the intention. It's another attempt to unify the brand presence. Shame.
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Post by legios on Sept 4, 2018 19:50:04 GMT
It's looking like Cyberverse is using all the same nostalgia characters the other nostalgia lines are using. -Ralph Pretty much. It has certainly impacted on my level of interest in the line - I saw some of the larger toys on Friday in Smyths but didn't feel any particular interest in buying them. If they were folk other than Grimlock, Starscream and Bumblebee might I have been more inclined? Almost certainly. At this rate I suspect I am going to end up mostly sitting this one out as well. If they are going to just rehash the same thirty year old characters over and over there is a lot less reason for me to buy them. What need have I of another Starscream for example, I already have a perfectly good Starscream... Karl |
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 4, 2018 20:23:07 GMT
There is the argument, however, as to whether it matters if the *kids* line continually reuses the same characters. If there is an expectation from the toy company that the target audience 'refreshes' every few years (the way Marvel US used to operate, for example) then perhaps there is little incentive for new characters. If a new set of kids come along every few years they may not know (or care) that the characters have been been redone dozens of times before.
As for me, I picked up Warrior Shockwave as unlike the MP it was an affordable way for me to pick up a version of a favourite character.
-Ralph
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Post by blueshift on Sept 4, 2018 20:46:54 GMT
There is the argument, however, as to whether it matters if the *kids* line continually reuses the same characters. If there is an expectation from the toy company that the target audience 'refreshes' every few years (the way Marvel US used to operate, for example) then perhaps there is little incentive for new characters. If a new set of kids come along every few years they may not know (or care) that the characters have been been redone dozens of times before. As for me, I picked up Warrior Shockwave as unlike the MP it was an affordable way for me to pick up a version of a favourite character. -Ralph I think it's a bit of a double-edged sword For kids, it's important to have key characters available. Nothing worse than not being able to buy a toy of your favourite guy. In the old days, the toy companies would just keep the same figure in circulation for years - now a toy has a shelf life of a few months before being replaced, so we get lots of variants. On the flipside oh man, as a kid the 'proper-looking' on-model version was the 'real' one and all the variants in weird armour/colour schemes/new hats were the 'fake' ones. Couldn't be having with any of that! Variety is the spice of life. Transformers used to be about lots of transforming robots, so we'd get a good range. Now it's about particular key characters, so we get the same guys again and again. |
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 5, 2018 8:30:55 GMT
Stagnation is kicking in. We can see this with the muted reaction to Siege where one of the nostalgia lines has been going so long it is starting to eat itself.
-Ralph
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 5, 2018 8:31:51 GMT
(moving posts relating to this here)
-Ralph
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Post by Shockprowl on Sept 5, 2018 9:46:32 GMT
I was the one who let you know, I was your sorry ever after, '84, '85.
Gimme new toys and I'll decide, but I'm really only after, '84, '85.
G1 FOREVER!!!!
YOU'RE ALL MAD!!!!!
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primenova
Fusilateral Quintro Combiner
Posts: 6,057
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Post by primenova on Sept 5, 2018 11:27:40 GMT
Look at the Spider-man line - how many different Spiderman toys you get - green blue black suit toxic attack deep driver with toilet cleaning action
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Rich
Protoform
Posts: 880
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Post by Rich on Sept 5, 2018 19:10:37 GMT
To what extent does nostalgia still figure significantly in everybody’s enjoyment of Transformers? I’d be interested to read other people’s thoughts.
I think I largely exhausted the well many years ago and have been kept interested by various things: fanfic, collecting , comics and, most of all, the friends I’ve made through the hobby. Occasionally, I get a pleasing little flutter of nostalgia but they are few and far between now (hardly surprising given that I’ve now spent almost 3 times as long being a ‘nostalgic’ fan as I ever was a child fan (20 years to 7).
I suspect I’m not alone in this and I suspect Hasbro know this and, in their mind, aren’t so much trying to tap into nostalgia per se as they are keeping the brand true to its core ideals. I agree this probably isn’t a great idea.
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Post by legios on Sept 5, 2018 19:21:19 GMT
There is the argument, however, as to whether it matters if the *kids* line continually reuses the same characters. If there is an expectation from the toy company that the target audience 'refreshes' every few years (the way Marvel US used to operate, for example) then perhaps there is little incentive for new characters. If a new set of kids come along every few years they may not know (or care) that the characters have been been redone dozens of times before. Yeah, I can absolutely see the logic there and from a business point of view it makes a certain sense. Mind you, up until now the kids line has been reasonably good about throwing us at least some new(er) characters along with the old - Animated Bulkhead, the Decepticons and Strongarm of Robots in Disguise. Up until Cyberverse it hasn't gone the full snake-eating-its-own-tail, which seems to be in danger of swallowing the Generations line whole. (Admission for clarity - my interest in the Generations line began to wane during Combiner Wars, and has steadily decreased ever since. Phil can confirm that my initial reaction to Siege was mostly a "huh". I perked up a bit at the idea of individually packaged Targetmaster type things, but am rather unenthused about the larger toys). I think that Ralph has hit on something important inasmuch as the selling point of Transformers is no longer "Warrior Robots in Disguise", it is far more "Bumblebee versus [insert Decepticon of choice]". The success of the live-action movies has gone a long way to ingraining the perception that Transformers is about a particular set of characters doing things, over and above the concept itself. *shrug* It doesn't really bother me per-se - there is still plenty of Transformers fiction for me to enjoy, and there are many other Mecha and robot toy-lines/modelkits/tv-shows out there. If less of my disposable income ends up going on Transformers then it may well go on some of those instead. I'll still be having fun. Karl |
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Post by legios on Sept 5, 2018 19:39:24 GMT
To what extent does nostalgia still figure significantly in everybody’s enjoyment of Transformers? I’d be interested to read other people’s thoughts. I don't really think that nostalgia ever really did feature that highly in my enjoyment of Transformers. There was certainly an element of that, but what brought me back to Transformers was Beast Machines and Beast Wars - because they were doing something different with the franchise. A whole new cast of characters, semi-organic alt-modes instead of vehicles. Robots in Disguise followed that up with an outright, deliberate off-the-wall comedy that was very entertaining. Likewise Armada and Energon brought new and different things to the table, and gave me a slew of new characters. Dreamwave's comics tried to tap heavily into the nostalgia vein and I lost interest in them within an issue and a half. IDW's output only slowly grabbed my attention as it became clear that this was going to be a different take on the original concept. (Similarly I dropped away at "All Hail Megatron" because it just felt like the Sunbow show on steroids.). There is a certain level of nostalgia, but I'd say that it is more reflected on me taking a little longer to decide that any particular bit of Transformers isn't for me - a willingness to give it a little more rope than I would most things (a show might get two episodes as opposed to a "convince me I want to come back next week" approach to its opener). I think my defective, and only partially active, nostalgia gene is why I am completely unmoved by IDW's "big finishing number" to their current TF comics line as well. They were very much marketing it with a sense of "look how special this is, Unicron is in it". To which my immediate reaction was "So? I've seen Unicron before". (For all I know it is a really good Unicron story, I haven't bothered to read any of it because nothing about the pitch made it sound interesting to me). Does any of that make sense? It does to me, but I am not sure how well I am explaining it. (My enjoyment of Transformers fandom is pretty much entirely separate from my enjoyment of Transformers. I like the fandom because of all the great, fun, mad and wonderful people I know as a result of it and the wonderful time I've had as a part of the fandom. I fell into it because of the giant robots, but I stay for the community.) Karl |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Sept 5, 2018 19:47:02 GMT
To what extent does nostalgia still figure significantly in everybody’s enjoyment of Transformers? I haven't been a fan of contemporary Transformers since last century, and the only things I buy are reprints from the Marvel era and comics written by James Roberts, so although my love of Transformers is 100% nostalgia-driven in one sense, Hasbro and new licence-holders for the stories are unlikely to make any money out of me by trying to tap into that. I hate franchise-recycling. (Except when it's transferring to a new media, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe.) Martin |
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2018 19:47:56 GMT
"Core characters" though is a concept that changes from series to series.
Lets use nuRiD for example: the core characters were Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Grimlock, Drift, Strongarm, and that minicon guy.
I do think it's important to make sure these characters are continuously available in some form through the entire run. The problem was Hasbro just flooded the market early on, and kept it flooded with constant repacks on top of repaints.
Where as, if you're gonna make a set of characters available for the entire run, then you might should have a lighter hand.
Granted this is more of an artform than a science. You don't want these guys blocking out everything else, as happened with much of NuRiD. But at the same time, you don't want popular characters being available only once, and out of reach of most kids.
But, my point is, in a healthy evolving franchise, "core characters" change depending on the fiction. Hotshot, Red Alert, and Demolishor were core characters for years, and now they're nowhere to be seen.
I have a bit more to say, but I have to post and leave, or else my browser will erase it.
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2018 23:12:16 GMT
"Core characters" though is a concept that changes from series to series. Lets use nuRiD for example: the core characters were Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Grimlock, Drift, Strongarm, and that minicon guy. I do think it's important to make sure these characters are continuously available in some form through the entire run. The problem was Hasbro just flooded the market early on, and kept it flooded with constant repacks on top of repaints. Where as, if you're gonna make a set of characters available for the entire run, then you might should have a lighter hand. Granted this is more of an artform than a science. You don't want these guys blocking out everything else, as happened with much of NuRiD. But at the same time, you don't want popular characters being available only once, and out of reach of most kids. But, my point is, in a healthy evolving franchise, "core characters" change depending on the fiction. Hotshot, Red Alert, and Demolishor were core characters for years, and now they're nowhere to be seen. I have a bit more to say, but I have to post and leave, or else my browser will erase it. I no longer remember my train of thought. Nostalgia does not factor much in for long term hardcore fans like us. We've been in it since the beginning, and most of us have never left. And those that did, still keep abreast of what's going on. During beast wars, while I wished for posable updates of the originals, I still had the original toys, catalogues, and comics. So while G1 was over, I never left it behind. What this "nostalgia" factor is meant for are the Geewunners (those who bitch and moan about everything that deviates even slightly from what we had between '84-'91), and the non-toy collecting adults who stopped following transformers in '86. So they run into the store and see CW/TR/Siege/Cyberverse/Authentics Optimus and say "THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I REMEMBER OPTIMUS! I HAD THIS TOY AS A KID!" and buy it for their kid (or themselves) But namely it boils down to whatsisname in charge, who's stuck in the mid eighties and thinks thats all that anyone wants. |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 6, 2018 14:44:31 GMT
I'm finding it hard to get excited about the redos of the 1984ish cast in WFC: Siege. None of them feel like they're adding anything new that hasn't been done before for them.
I'd be more excited if the 84/5 guys were the Micromasters, and even then that's kind of been done already with the Legends figures from Universe 2 & RTS
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Post by Shockprowl on Sept 6, 2018 15:33:38 GMT
GEEEEEWUUUUN!!! FOREVER!!!
GEEEEEEEWWWWWWUUUUUUUN!!!! YEAH!!!!
GEEWUN! GEEWUN! GEEWUN! GEEWUN! YEAH YEAH YEAH!!!!
What this "nostalgia" factor is meant for are the Geewunners (those who bitch and moan about everything that deviates even slightly from what we had between '84-'91)...
HEY!
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Post by Toph on Sept 6, 2018 15:39:02 GMT
I have no doubt Siege is going to be a great toyline, but I agree. On top of what Phil said, things are just slightly off enough that it's not doing something new, while feeling wrong.
Like Optimus. We genuinely do not have the Iconic Cartoon/Comic Optimus Prime in voyager scale, which is something we've been asking for, for 11 years (longer, honestly) now.
We finally get it- but it's got all this "cybertronian alt mode" garble that doesn't actually make him look like a 4 million years ago pre-earth Optimus. It makes him look like iconic 80s Optimus with weird cyberpunk garble tacked on.
The most exciting parts of Siege, are the Micromasters, the quasi-return of the minicon gimmick, and Ultra Magnus (first his alt mode, second being a proper Ultra Magnus, complete with white Optimus and trailer armor).
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Post by Shockprowl on Sept 6, 2018 15:43:38 GMT
To what extent does nostalgia still figure significantly in everybody’s enjoyment of Transformers? I’d be interested to read other people’s thoughts. This is such a good question. For me, it's ALL about the nostalgia. Hence my boarder-line demented level of Geewunness. With every purchase I make I relive that first excitement that I had when I first saw The Transformers in the shops! But even I, a hard-line Geewunner, think that The Transformers, as Doc' eloquently says, is about to disappear up it's own arse. I think the nostalgia line needs to have a big-old long rest. Problem is, I don't think there can now be The Transformers without Optimus Prime, Megatron and Bumblebee, with Starscream close behind them. Those four now can't be left out of any line, THEY ARE The Transformers. And once you have those four, everyone else just ends up getting tagged on, 'cos at the end of the day, they are good interesting characters. So I don't see a way out of the current Geewun rut. But I do worry about the future of the line. |
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Post by Toph on Sept 6, 2018 15:44:52 GMT
What this "nostalgia" factor is meant for are the Geewunners (those who bitch and moan about everything that deviates even slightly from what we had between '84-'91)...
HEY!You don't throw a hissyfit every time there's a new female character or toy, or every time anyone mentions G2, Beast Wars, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy, Prime, Rescue Bots, Animated, or Movies in a positive way. You prefer G1, but you are not a geewunner. (And yeah, I know your entire post was in jest, I just feel this is a very important distinction) |
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Post by Shockprowl on Sept 6, 2018 16:09:38 GMT
You don't throw a hissyfit every time there's a new female character or toy, or every time anyone mentions G2, Beast Wars, Robots in Disguise, Unicron Trilogy, Prime, Rescue Bots, Animated, or Movies in a positive way. You prefer G1, but you are not a geewunner. (And yeah, I know your entire post was in jest, I just feel this is a very important distinction) Awwww, you're the best CJ, thanks man. |
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Post by Pinwig on Sept 6, 2018 20:40:02 GMT
In fairness, Shockprowl throws a hissyfit if any new toy isn't Prowl.
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Post by Shockprowl on Sept 6, 2018 21:11:40 GMT
THAT'S NOT TRUE!!!! NOT TRUE!!!!
BBBLLLAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!
Aaaaarrrrggghhhh
Nmmmmmmm
Yeah, fair enough...
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Post by Toph on Sept 6, 2018 23:46:12 GMT
Yeah but he also accepts ALL Prowls, regardless of their Generation or 1.
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Post by Llama God on Sept 7, 2018 6:43:22 GMT
I'm sure I've said this in many places elsewhere, but at fear of repeating myself: Yeah, there's too much nostalgia. Even for someone who grew up and worships Marvel G1 like I do.
I managed to miss collecting on G2 because I was at that age where I shouldn't really be getting toys or reading toy-based comics any more (I grew out of it though, clearly), and Beast Wars was my re-entry into fandom. I remember being excited about the brief appearances of the G1 cast. And as much as I was loving the Beast X series, I remember how excited I was when a toyline was going to feature an Optimus Prime for the first time in ages (this being Car Robots/RiD)! That was actual, palpable excitement! And then... and then we've not been short of Optimus Primes since.
At this point, and as Phil says, the Generations line just doesn't seem to be doing anything new. Sure, we've got a couple of things that are nice (Voyager Prime, Leader Magnus with a small cab robot), but those aren't line wide things. Generally this line feels like stagnation, with a couple of possibly interesting robots thrown in.
I don't know, maybe it'll all change once they reveal Micromaster bases or something, and we're all like, why didn't you lead with that and leave the G1 stuff as a nice surprise for later! But until then, I'm longing for the days when the Generations line would give us nonsense like Straxus, Jhiaxus, Doubledealer, Rhinox, and all sorts of characters that weren't The Big Four...
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Jim
Thunderjet
Micromaster Backside Monitor
Now in glorious Ultra HD 4K
Posts: 4,931
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Post by Jim on Sept 8, 2018 21:32:53 GMT
But until then, I'm longing for the days when the Generations line would give us nonsense like Straxus, Jhiaxus, Doubledealer, Rhinox, and all sorts of characters that weren't The Big Four... Sounds like nostalgia  I don't buy into this whole long-term-fans-don't-get-nostaliga / nostalgia-is-inherently-bad narrative. It's how you react to your nostalgia that counts - nobody should be a slave to it, and neither should Hasbro. I count myself as a long-term fan, and in no way a "Geewunner", and I definitely feel nostalgia! When I pick up one of my childhood transformers, read some old comics (especially via the TF UK Classics collections, they're awash with it), handle a really good update (or reissue) of a classic character... even if I go into a physical store and buy a toy which has no connection back to the original line, then go home and open it I still get a sort of nostalgia for how the same process felt as a kid. These days I feel nostalgia for Armada / Energon! I don't find this to be a bad thing, it's just something I feel and move on from, it doesn't prompt me to get shouty and entitled about wanting X/Y/Z like some. As for Siege / Cyberverse I'm fairly ambivalent about it all so far. Some of the Micromaster homages look okay; there's quite a lot we haven't seen yet. But running through the same old characters again, in both lines, is kind of depressing. It does look like there might be some new characters in Cyberverse for which we haven't yet seen toys, I think that's what I'll be hanging most hopes on, and there's some nice looking new stuff in the Movie Studio Series toys for Bumblebee. I have plenty of Transformers toys anyway (maybe even too many!) that continue to give me pleasure, in which I also count nostalgia! |
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Post by Llama God on Sept 9, 2018 11:20:46 GMT
But until then, I'm longing for the days when the Generations line would give us nonsense like Straxus, Jhiaxus, Doubledealer, Rhinox, and all sorts of characters that weren't The Big Four... Sounds like nostalgia ARGH! Cannot escape... logic... of that... argument! *explodes* *(but not in as good a way as people used to explode)* |
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