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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 1, 2019 21:48:57 GMT
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Post by blueshift on Mar 1, 2019 22:07:17 GMT
Can't believe how terrible this looks. Can't believe it's actually still being released in cinemas.
Same writer as Last Stand isn't it?!
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 1, 2019 22:22:57 GMT
He's directing it.
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Post by Toph on Mar 2, 2019 0:35:01 GMT
Simon Kinberg wrote The Last Stand, Days of Future Past, Apocalypse, and Fantastic Four (reboot).
Okay, excluding XMO: Wolverine, these are all the absolute worst movies in the franchise. That suddenly makes a lot of sense as to why I don't like those movies when I feel like I should.
I mean, how do you screw up Days of Future Past? Like The Dark Phoenix Saga, it's one of the all time classic comic stories there is.
In fact, his entire IMDB resumé under "written by" is full of nothing but clunkers.
I think I might owe Brett Ratner an apology. He took all of the fandom blame for X3, and certainly received all of my ire.
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 2, 2019 21:44:30 GMT
Can't believe how terrible this looks. Can't believe it's actually still being released in cinemas. The X-Men films have made a lot of money. Even with Fox coming under Disney it still makes sense to release their last few films. Thankfully Singer isn't directing it so I can go see it. -Ralph |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 3, 2019 18:40:10 GMT
Still we will always have X-Men First Class.
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primenova
Fusilateral Quintro Combiner
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Post by primenova on Jun 10, 2019 11:33:26 GMT
Dark Phoenix
I'll watch it when it is on DVD
But seen 1 star review saying it makes Wolverine Origins look good
But is the story cursed.
We had it in X-men series 3 - when BBC dropped the cartoon. - this was when the cartoon order was switched round & did become a mess
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jun 10, 2019 17:48:29 GMT
I'll try and see it in the next few days...
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primenova
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Post by primenova on Jun 13, 2019 11:58:46 GMT
On news sites it says the film was being re written when they all were on set filming it so the story doesn't make sense. But aren't they merging 2 comic book stories into one film? The cartoon at least kept the parts apart.
The Reavers 2 parter lead then Pheonix saga. Then the espisodes that made everything disjointed but Apocalypse with Ship was one of the best from series 3. Then dark phoenix for the end
Also wasn't someone the baddie in this film? Not seen any hints that the character is in it.
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Post by Toph on Jun 13, 2019 13:34:15 GMT
The Phoenix Force was the guardian of the M'kraan Crystal. Or imprisoned in it, I don't remember. But that was indeed an entire story separate from The Dark Phoenix Saga.
Lilandra of the Shi'ar Empire was trying to escape to earth to get away from her brother D'Ken who wanted the power of the crystal to rule with. The X-Men were trying to save a space shuttle, and failing when the Phoenix Force intervened, possessed Jean, and saved them all.
The Dark Phoenix Saga-
Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, and the Hellfire Club were the villains.
Shaw had Frost mentally corrupt the Phoenix into becoming hid Black Queen because he wanted to manipulate her power, to which Frost became jealous and tipped her over, prompting her change into Dark Phoenix.
Dark Phoenix went on to destroy a solar system, prompting the Shi'ar to put her on trial, which after a battle on the moon, resulted in Phoenix committing suicide.
When they brought Jean back, it was learned that Phoenix was't Jean at all, but believed itself to be Jean.
It was retconned in the '00s that Jean was Phoenix all along. And this began the long history of Marvel completely ruining these characters while shitting all over this story.
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Post by blueshift on Jun 13, 2019 13:37:53 GMT
My memory is hazy. Was the Phoenix force originally a thing that possessed Jean, or was Phoenix the name she gave herself after her powers developed and was then retconned into an external force?
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Post by Toph on Jun 13, 2019 15:26:49 GMT
It has always canonically been The Phoenix Force.
In the original story by Claremont, it supposedly possessed Jean.
However when though brought Jean back, a story also by Claremont, it was revealed that it never possessed Jean, and instead cocooned her at the bottom of the Hudson. However, it did think itself as her.
Whether that was a sly retcon by the same author, or was always his intent, I don't know.
In more recent stories, what it is has been all over the place, ranging from always having been part of Jean, to being a manifestation of her powers, to possessing multiple X-Men at once (known as The Phoenix Five, which included Cyclops, Emma Frost, and Collosus?)
The story where Jean died and came back five times in one miniseries is where I officially checked out.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 13, 2019 16:53:45 GMT
In the original story by Claremont, it supposedly possessed Jean. However when though brought Jean back, a story also by Claremont, it was revealed that it never possessed Jean, and instead cocooned her at the bottom of the Hudson. However, it did think itself as her. The Return of Jean Grey was by Roger Stern (Avengers #263, www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=46386), the Editor of the original Dark Phoenix tale, and John Byrne (Fantastic Four 286, www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=48864), it's co-writer/artist, from an idea by Kurt Busiek. My recollection is Claremont wasn't keen on undoing her death - Andy Turnbull may recall better or differently. |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 13, 2019 17:07:07 GMT
The Phoenix Force was the guardian of the M'kraan Crystal. Or imprisoned in it, I don't remember. Neither. It's guardians are Jahf and Modt. For more on the crystal see marvel.fandom.com/wiki/M%27Kraan_CrystalBut that was indeed an entire story separate from The Dark Phoenix Saga. Indeed. Lilandra of the Shi'ar Empire was trying to escape to earth to get away from her brother D'Ken who wanted the power of the crystal to rule with. A long running sub plot in Uncanny X-Men late #90s to 108. The X-Men were trying to save a space shuttle, and failing when the Phoenix Force intervened, possessed Jean, and saved them all. Uncanny X-Men 100-101 The Dark Phoenix Saga- Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, and the Hellfire Club were the villains. Shaw had Frost mentally corrupt the Phoenix into becoming hid Black Queen because he wanted to manipulate her power, to which Frost became jealous and tipped her over, prompting her change into Dark Phoenix. Mastermimnd, not Emma Frost. The Mastermind stuff runs through Uncanny X-Men in the 120s and the Hellfire Club stuff kicks off 129 ..... Dark Phoenix went on to destroy a solar system, prompting the Shi'ar to put her on trial, which after a battle on the moon, resulted in Phoenix committing suicide. .... with Dark Phoenix running into 137 When they brought Jean back, it was learned that Phoenix was't Jean at all, but believed itself to be Jean. Avengers 263/Fantastic Four 286. It was retconned in the '00s that Jean was Phoenix all along. It's a bit of a mess, but that's never been my interpretation. |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jun 13, 2019 17:37:57 GMT
Claremont indeed didn't want her death undone, but it was the brainchild of Jim Shooter. He wanted the original five X-Men back together again.
Claremont was always wanting to push things forward, hence why Cyclops was phased out of the book, and was meant to be a recurring character on occasion, but not an active member of the roster. Which is why he had Storm so convincingly beat him for leadership.
Andy
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Post by Toph on Jun 13, 2019 17:40:59 GMT
In the original story by Claremont, it supposedly possessed Jean. However when though brought Jean back, a story also by Claremont, it was revealed that it never possessed Jean, and instead cocooned her at the bottom of the Hudson. However, it did think itself as her. The Return of Jean Grey was by Roger Stern (Avengers #263, www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=46386), the Editor of the original Dark Phoenix tale, and John Byrne (Fantastic Four 286, www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/comic.php?comicid=48864), it's co-writer/artist, from an idea by Kurt Busiek. My recollection is Claremont wasn't keen on undoing her death - Andy Turnbull may recall better or differently. Ah. |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 13, 2019 18:12:30 GMT
Claremont indeed didn't want her death undone, but it was the brainchild of Jim Shooter. He wanted the original five X-Men back together again. Claremont was always wanting to push things forward, hence why Cyclops was phased out of the book, and was meant to be a recurring character on occasion, but not an active member of the roster. Which is why he had Storm so convincingly beat him for leadership. Andy Thank you! I thought Claremont was probably anti but couldn't 100% swear to it. I could swear I've read Brian Cronin cover it in Comic Book Legends Revealed, but the older ones pre CBR are harder to find. Oddly the subject didn't come up when we talked about Cyclops and the X-Men at this time recently tmukhub.proboards.com/post/368344/thread |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 13, 2019 18:29:32 GMT
Probably should also be recalled that Claremont & Byrne had not planned to kill Jean Grey off in the first place, and it was Shooter that told them too!
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jun 13, 2019 19:06:37 GMT
Indeed.
She was just going to be depowered and her and Cyclops written out of the X-Men.
Andy
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primenova
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Post by primenova on Jun 14, 2019 11:33:25 GMT
They used Mastermind in the comic & cartoon but we've already seen Mastermind in X-men 2 so they can't really use the same character?
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Post by Toph on Jun 14, 2019 14:44:39 GMT
X-Men 3 was also their first go at the dark phoenix saga. (And written by the same guy as this film)
Very little in the XMCU makes sense anymore since they started their time travel shenanigans.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 14, 2019 15:57:34 GMT
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Post by jameso on Jun 24, 2019 23:59:06 GMT
Titan books published a series of comic creators on... books in early to mid 2000s, they talk extensively about Jean coming back and X-Factor's creation in the X-Men one. Furman is the editor on most of them I think.
I quite enjoyed the movie, shame it will only be remembered as a massive flop. I'm a big X-Men fan but never particulary liked Phoenix Saga, not in the original comics, not in the cartoon and not in X-Men 3. I vaguely remember a young readers novelisation in the 90s I thought did it quite well. In general not a big fan of X-Men in space, don't really like the Shiar and don't like Hellfire club, so nothing about Phoenix Saga does it for me.
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Post by Toph on Jun 25, 2019 0:26:59 GMT
I don't think the hellfire club has *ever* been used in an interesting way.
While the characters range from decent enough to great on their own, as an organization, it's just a very boring concept.
The one and only time I think it could have been brilliant, was if it had been adapted to X-Men Evolution, as the school faculty for a season. Shaw as the principal, Frost as the guidance counselor, everyone else as teachers. Plus bringing in the hellions as new students to give both the x-men and the brotherhood a mutual adversary.
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Post by Bogatan on Jun 25, 2019 0:34:12 GMT
I think I went in with such low expectations that I really enjoyed it despite its many, many issues.
However I do wish they had done something better for what they must have known would be the end of the XMCU.
19 years of expanded universe is an amazing achievement and as hit and miss as they have been plenty of others have shown just how hard it is.
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Post by Toph on Nov 7, 2019 1:53:44 GMT
So I finally saw it, and I don't hate it. Actually regret not going to the theater, a little.
It's far from the best, but it's certainly a long way from the worst.
I thought the way they changed some of the Phoenix lore in order to compensate for characters no longer in play, while still hitting enough beats to make it ring true and still feel faithful were really clever.
My biggest complaint with the last several X-Men movies (really, every one since X2) is that they were head scratchingly convoluted.
The ones I've enjoyed (X1, X2, First Class, The Wolverine, Deadpool, DP2, Logan) weren't convoluted, even if they weren't great.
This wasn't convoluted.
And I thibk I'll add this to the "enjoyed, even if it wasn't great" pile.
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