Big guy = leader

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I can't remember, Phil may say we've discussed this before, but it bugs me that, at least in the toy range, and most of the cartoons (especially Japanese), leader and main hero/villain too often equates to big robot (excluding the odd base like Metroplex and Omega Supreme).

Why is the largest member of every Special Team always the one in command? Does it make kids more inclined to buy the more expensive toy if it's marketed as being the leader / main hero/villain? That kind of makes sense, though it's a shame.

What's particularly got me thinking about this is that in working my way through various 1988 and 1989 toy characters in the fan-fiction board, I've got to the Japanese Victory series, and this is where things get really boring. OK, we had God Ginrai who was the main hero in 1988 (Masterforce), and he was an interesting character because he was a human in an Autobot body, but he was also the most powerful hero in the TF universe in 1988, just as Fortress Maximus had been in 1987.

Then it's 1989, and suddenly Ginrai is Number 2 to the new big hero, Star Saber, who appears out of nowhere but is now suddenly marketed as an even stronger hero than Ginrai.

Until 1990, when suddenly Star Saber is Number 2 to the new big hero, Dai-Atlas, who appears out of nowhere but is now suddenly marketed as an even stronger hero than Star Saber.

Until 1991, when suddenly Dai-Atlas is replaced by Sky Garry, who is then replaced by Star Convoy, and then in 1992 we get Thunderclash, and then in 1993 we get Pyro, and then in 1994 we get Laser Rod Optimus Prime.

And the Decepticons were almost as bad, except they didn't get a new big villain toy every year.

It's mind-numbingly formulaic and repetitive.

Can anyone explain the difference between Star Saber, Dai-Atlas, Sky Garry, Thunderclash and Pyro as characters, from a Hasbro/Takara marketing perspective?

Or the difference between guys like Deathsaurus, Skyquake and Clench. Are they not all just Interchangeable Generic Hero and Interchangeable Generic Bad Guy?

The comic made characters like Grimlock, Ratbat and Bludgeon leaders, but I can't see characters with toys as small as them every being marketed as leader in the toy range or Japanese cartoon series.

Rant over. Observations welcome.

Martin

[Pinwig]

I think it comes down to marketing desirable toys while the comic was much more interested in developing interesting characters. If you're making money out of plastic figures, the bigger the better. If you're weaving an interesting narrative, by default you probably want to avoid that.

[The Huff]

Yes! This also bugged me as it came across as the big guys were always leaders simply through might and oppression over anyone smaller. Which is very caveman like and we know Transformers are more advanced than that.
Which is why I like the Rabat and Bludgeon scenarios as they grew into the roles and broke the mould a little.

[Toph]

You hit the nail on the head of exactly why I don't like japanese continuity transformers. The biggest complaints I have about the Unicron Trilogy anime, is that it follows all the exact formulaic shonen tropes that the G1 animes did.
-Your all powerful and all knowing leaders
-Your grumpy loner who the good guys rely on as much as the main hero (same as the first guy in BWN)
-Your warrior villain who's deeply honorable
And at least a dozen more similar tropes found in all kids mecha/brawler series.
(CR and BWII/N are as guilty, but I cut them a bit more if a break as they're largely played for laughs, and lampshades the tropes)

I always liked that Scrapper was the leader of the constructicons. It's more imaginative.
But with the others, it makes no sense fictionally for the torso to be the leader just because he's bigger. But from a toy standpoint it makes sense, as the gimmick of those is to swap and steal limbs. You still got Menasor, even if he stole Airraid because Dead End got hurt. If Dead End had been the leader, then Menasor would be directionless. Moreover, if Airraid was the Aerialbot leader, he might take over Menasor.

[Fortmax2020]

I always regarded Dai Atlas as stepping in to a commander role temporarily after Victory Saber had a planet explode in his face. A temporary measure while Saber recovered fully from his injuries.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Jun 16, 2019 22:54:29 GMT Fortmax2020 said:

I always regarded Dai Atlas as stepping in to a commander role temporarily after Victory Saber had a planet explode in his face. A temporary measure while Saber recovered fully from his injuries.

I don't think that's how the kids were supposed to see it when they chucked their Star Saber toy in the bin with Ginrai and badgered their parents to get them the new even better leader, who would entertain them until made redundant by Battlestars.

The other thing that's annoying me at the moment is in Masters of the Universe and Thundercats, both of which I've been looking at a lot recently. They are both filled with interesting and imaginative characters, creatures, vehicles and villains, and yet the official media - cartoon particularly - focuses far too much on the main hero, who in both cases is the simple-minded all-good somewhat immature muscle-man heir to the throne. Bleagh. Why couldn't there have been cartoon episodes and comics that didn't feature the boring main hero, but had the more interesting characters as the star? And there were lots of different He-Man toys, but only one of most of the others (apart from a few different versions of Skeletor and Hordak to fight the different versions of He-Man).

Martin

[The Huff]

Another good thing about Transformers (well, western G1 I guess) is that the story was never about any one paricular character. The cast would change.
He- Man, Spiderman, Superman etc. is all about that particular hero (as it was intended). Perhaps if the He-Man tots were made as Transformers, He-Man (& perhaps King Randor) would be giants.
Regarding the 'next big toy/leader thing' the comic was just as bad sometimes (Buzzsaw canon blasting the then redundant Omega Supreme comes to mind).

[Grand Moff Muffin]

The toy-line wasn't called He-Man, it was called Masters of the Universe, as were many of the comics. But they were still all about He-Man.

Martin

[Llama God]

Well that's one of the things that killed the 2000's He-Man - the fact they concentrated so much on He-Man himself as a character... and put way too many of him into each case. The original series did have many more characters - yes, there were variants of the hero characters, of course, but He-Man had loads of interesting and bizarre characters, many of whom at the very least got an episode or issue of the comic about them.

But yeah, as others have said, it's about the money. You want people to buy your biggest, most expensive toy, and so to do that you make them the main character. And in terms of Western narratives at least, that means that the main character has to be the leader. This is possibly partly because of the focus on the individual over the collective in Western cultures, but also maybe because kids are typically powerless, and will want to try to identify with the person that's in charge. (Which is how He-Man came about - Mattel observed that children wanted to have more power than they do. Thus, they have the power...)

Of course, Hasbro did try to go against this trend with Beast Machines, wherein neither Prime nor Megatron were one of the larger toys. And that... didn't go so well. Although you can blame that on multiple factors.

[The Huff]

Falcon (the Predator) was the Leader while Skyquake was just Air Commander. Wait, so was Falcon only leader when everyone went for a stroll?

[The Doctor]

Jun 17, 2019 6:32:50 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

The toy-line wasn't called He-Man, it was called Masters of the Universe, as were many of the comics. But they were still all about He-Man.

Martin

Incorrect. Many comics and cartoon episodes would focus on the other characters. Each toy back in the day also got a special pack-in comic all about them.

-Ralph

[Jim]

Big guy = leader is only logical. It gives G1 Shockwave his proper place in the hierarchy.

[Jim]

Oh, and Jetfire!

[The Doctor]

I'm just wondering when Big Guy will finally get his place as a leader of the Transformers.

-Ralph

[Llama God]

Once Big Red's had his turn.

[Dezzeh]

Probably right after Heynow Bigman