1984's Transformers Are Forty!

[legios]

Aug 22, 2024 8:35:36 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

Aug 22, 2024 7:59:25 GMT The Doctor said:

Karl has elimated your argument.

-Ralph

No he didn’t, I specifically answered his. Karl’s argument is based on the assumption that jets and cars have the same height in robot mode, which depends on artistic representation. Mine is based on vehicular Transformers often being artistically represented as the same size before and after transforming.

Indeed - that is a basic axiom that I have accepted here. Based on previous discussions on this board and elsewhere it appears that this is the generally agreed axiom within Transformers fandom, and I have therefore accepted it for purposes of this argument as it forms part the Consensus Reality of Transformers fandom. It would be entirely possible for me to reject any of the basic axioms generally used by fandom. However, like a discussion about physics in accelerated reference frames between the user of a strict Newtonian model and the user of a relativistic model the conversation threatens to become two different conversations about two different realities.

In fairness the same applies in the case of "well, perhaps the Jets are disguised as half-sized F-15s". At this point the axiom that "Earth modes of the toys are to a reasonable degree of approximation representative intended to be representative of the real vehicle/object" is being discarded, and we no longer have a referent for determining the size of the alt-mode... (*)

Karl

* - (Of course, some of this latter issue has its roots in the fact that Transformers toys were not originally intended to be the same size. The toys that were taken from Diaclone and Microchange had non-(humanoid/creature) modes that were all to scale, but they were not all to the _same_ scale. The toys of the Autobot cars are designed at a different scale to the Decepticon jets, with the Microchange toys further having been designed at a scale of 1/1 (i.e they were supposed to be the actual size of the object represented) - in both modes.

A lot of the issue here stems from Transformers fandom having established the axiom that the relative size difference between the humanoids form of the toys represents a consistent size difference between the theoretical "real-world" humanoid robots they represent. Which was not the intention of the original designers of the toys in question. By contrast the Diaclone Porsche was (iirc) intended to be about 24 times smaller than a real Porsche with its humanoid mecha form being a similar reduction from its theoretical "real world" height, whilst the Microchange Microcassette robots were intended to be the same size as a Microcassette in that form (which they are), and the same size in hypothetical "reality" as its toy).

If you really want your brain tied into a pretzel, consider

Skyfire's alt-mode is depicted as being several times larger than the F-15 that Starscream is suggested to transform into.

_Jetfires_ alt-mode is - although closer to the F-15s size - actually intended to be smaller than it(we can say this with authority for 1984 Jetfire because he transforms into a VF-1 Valkyrie, and we have the actual dimensions (length, wingspan, loaded and unloaded weight and so on) for one of those...

[legios]

I mean, I agree with Martin's observation that the idea of mass-shifting is nonsense.

Of course it is, but then - the idea of a humanoid machine made of metal the size of Omega Supreme being able to stand on the ground without sinking into Earth up to at least its ankles, and probably halfway up its legs is equally nonsensical.

At the point we started talking about giant robots walking about on an Earthlike planet we have basically checked sense at the door. We are pretty much working by what we are willing to accept under "rule of cool", and this is a very personal choice. So everyone is going to end up with some very different basic axioms that they are comfortable with.

*shrug* It's fiction, fiction is inherently not real once you get down to brass tacks. This means that the degree to which we are comfortable with deviations from reality in a given story boils down to our personal comfort level. Within the given frame of a fiction. For me Transformers - which contains things like actual gods, computer programs that can create sapient and sentient life, is pretty far into "a wizard did it" territory really...

Karl

[Fortmax2020]

You raise an interesting idea... Perhaps Omega Supreme *is* sunken into the ground up to his knees and that's why he is so difficult to knock down? He just has incredibly long legs and we don't see half of them..?

[The Doctor]

Omega Supreme...the Easter Island statues...

-Ralph

[legios]

Silent Sentinels...watching...waiting...but for what?

Karl

[Pinwig]

Being dug out of the hole they're in I expect.

[Shockprowl]

I'm eating biscuits. They're gonna mass-shift onto my belly.

[Fortmax2020]

Once on the lips....

[The Doctor]

...twice on the hips!

-Ralph

[legios]

"Once on the lip, forever on the hip!" - Amanda King, "The Scarecrow and Mrs King". (regarding some biscuits she had baked and kindly bought in as a peace-offering for CIA agent Francine...)

Karl

[Philip Ayres]

1984's Transformers Are Forty: Week 22|Windcharger
Function: Autobot Warrior
Japan: 12 Charger
tfwiki.net/wiki/Windcharger_(G1)
www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/Windcharger/windcharger.htm

"Quick action equals quick victory."

Windcharger is the fastest Autobot over short distances. Good in situations requiring fast, decisive action. Enthusiastic but impatient. Short attention span. Casts powerful magnetic field which can attract or repel large metal objects. Smashes them at closer distances. These abilities use up tremendous energy. Often burns himself out due to carelessness.


Strength
4
Intelligence
6
Speed
8
Endurance
4
Rank
5
Courage
9
Firepower
7
Skill
9

[Pinwig]

The greatest of the original Minibots!

[The Doctor]

Great wee toy.

-Ralph

[Philip Ayres]

My first Windcharger - and Gears - were Joustra Diaclones.

Very nice little toy

[that_bluestreak]

Aug 25, 2024 23:00:47 GMT Philip Ayres said:

1984's Transformers Are Forty: Week 22|Windcharger
Function: Autobot Warrior
Japan: 12 Charger
tfwiki.net/wiki/Windcharger_(G1)
www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/Windcharger/windcharger.htm

"Quick action equals quick victory."

Windcharger is the fastest Autobot over short distances. Good in situations requiring fast, decisive action. Enthusiastic but impatient. Short attention span. Casts powerful magnetic field which can attract or repel large metal objects. Smashes them at closer distances. These abilities use up tremendous energy. Often burns himself out due to carelessness.


Strength
4
Intelligence
6
Speed
8
Endurance
4
Rank
5
Courage
9
Firepower
7
Skill
9

My first Transformer! I got Windcharger for christmas in 1984. Apparently I took it to Church and showed the vicar. This was the toy that started a 40 year uh something more than an interest but less than an obsession... hobby? jam? idk. That first Windcharger didn't last very long, he got chewed up by a dog and only am arm floated around the bottom of the Transformers box for years. I have of course replaced him and I think I am on my third or fourth Windcharger now. A fine little toy, simple, pleasurable, weird alien face appeal, long magnetic arms (in the imagination at least), a tendency for the legs to bend a bit and make standing or driving tricky but you can't have everything. Cool car mode, though not one that was really recognisable to a UK kid with no interest in cars. Never did understand what was going on with his rear windscreen, what is the stepped thing for?

Great techspecs, a real character. One that I think appealed especially to kids who tend towards impulsive. Also, I only realised recently that the only other Autobot with magnetic powers is Tailgate... a nice touch I think.

Got some decent minor appearances in early Marvel G1, I missed Raiders of the Last Ark the first time round but being prioritised for repair in Wrath of Guardian was cool. Being Optimus' secret rescue plan in There Shall Come A Leader was also cool. I like it when writers consider each TF's powers and uses them. That kind of fades away over the years. He got a good role in Dinobot Hunt too.

My only recollection of him in the cartoon is him wearing a lab coat and that screen grab of him appearign to be an old fashioned flasher, and him pretending to be dead in TFTM.

Great little toy and one I have a lot of love for.

[Shockprowl]

WINDCHARGER!


Fitting he is this week as a representation of him in the current Siegey/Earthrisey/Legacy scale is now THE ONLY FIGURE I NEED to complete my set of '84ers.


My first experience of the toy was the keyring version and I instantly fell in love with what a great Transformer he is. I love the alieny faces of The Six.

Techspecs is great, a great character design. You can imagine him and Cliff jumper egging each other on.

Didn't really see his impulsive personality in the cartoon; he always seemed fairly sensible there.

Numbers are middle of the road. I like it how his magnetic powers give him a Firepower of 7. Interesting how his Speed is high, but his Endurance is low.

His skill wasn't 9 though, Big Phil, was it? Botch's website shows it as a 6, and I'm sure I remember it being a 6 when I got the keyring.

Great figure, great character- Hasbro, please do a new version to match the other members of The Six!

[Philip Ayres]

Aug 26, 2024 18:14:07 GMT Shockprowl said:

His skill wasn't 9 though, Big Phil, was it? Botch's website shows it as a 6, and I'm sure I remember it being a 6 when I got the keyring.

That's what TFU have down but it appears they are wrong

[Philip Ayres]

1984's Transformers Are Forty: Week 23Mirage
Function: Autobot Spy
Japan: 7 Ligier
tfwiki.net/wiki/Mirage_(G1)/toys#The_Transformers
www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/Mirage/mirage.htm

"Who and what I am I hide from the enemy."

Mirage is not thrilled about being an Autobot freedom fighter. Prefers hunting turbofoxes on Cybertron with his high-priced friends. Effective fighter, more effective intelligence gatherer. Electro-disrupter can cast illusions altering his physical placement and appearance for up to 6 minutes. Expert marksman with armor-piercing rocket-dart hunting rifle. Unsure of Autobot cause... can't be fully trusted.


Strength
6
Intelligence
9
Speed
7
Endurance
5
Rank
7
Courage
5
Firepower
6
Skill
10

[Llama God]

What a toy this one is! Just look at that design, and how well those colours map on to it - absolutely gorgeous! Although I'm pretty sure I was dimly aware of him prior to the story, his appearence in Man of Iron is seared into my memory, and what makes him so memorable for me - much more so than his hijincks in Arrival from Cybertron.

This is also one that's never bettered by any of his updates. The lack of all of the colouring and signage really means he loses something in later incarnations, and the move to more Sunbow-aligned proportions makes him lack something of his majesty, too.

On that note, his bio is another inspired one. I love the idea of a rich-kid Autobot arsehole who's somehow found himself in the war anyway. Again, another backstory that isn't explored nearly as much as it should be, aside from the occasional question of his loyalties.

Anyway, great stuff.

And, of course, I never owned one.

[Fortmax2020]

I like on his bio that there is an Autobot 'cause'. It isn't just the default 'Not Decepticon' position.

His choice of vehicle mode not being much of a disguise also matches his snobbish 'I'm not all that convinced enough to try' bio.

[Philip Ayres]

I have one and it's fab.

Just a shame the waist is a tinsy bit fragile and the mould is lost :-(

[Jim]

One of my schoolfriends had this one and I was never fussed about it as a kid, but what I wouldn't give to own one now!

And one of the all time great bios. It inspired one of the very few pieces of fanfic I wrote as an adult. I'm not sure he's ever been really done full justice in official fiction.

[Jim]

Sept 2, 2024 7:24:39 GMT Llama God said:

This is also one that's never bettered by any of his updates. The lack of all of the colouring and signage really means he loses something in later incarnations, and the move to more Sunbow-aligned proportions makes him lack something of his majesty, too.

I broadly agree, but props to Classics for taking inspiration from it and producing a quite different but also very good toy.

[The Doctor]

Oh yes. The Classics Mirage is fab. Great toy.

-Ralph

[Shockprowl]

MIRAGE!!!

Absolute cast-iron all time GREAT.

Great toy, mesmerically good bio. Just all round legendary stuff.

I had him as a kid, one of firsts. Waist lasted a good while, only snapping well into young adulthood.

Another one that looks alieny in the face. Luxurious car mode and nice transformation.


But the Techspecs. OH BABY THE TECHSPECS!!!

I remember my brother and I were utterly compelled by it. "Unsure of Autobot course... cannot be fully trusted". Absolutely stunning. If I think about it, this was probably one of the biggest 'reveals' that got me hooked as a kid. I had already fallen in love with Techspecs, but here- a good-guy who MAY NOT BE A GOOD-GUY?!?! "Effective fighter, more effective intelligence gatherer." It's just packed!

Thrilling stuff. But yes, sadly not really explored too much. And although he got some good look-ins, he was always eclipsed by characters that I suppose were just easier to write.

But to me, Mirage has always been a smoldering uncertainty.

Even his motto is compelling.

And cool numbers too! Very clever and skillful, but lacking courage. He manages a six in strength next to some of the other cars who only score a five.

But... there is the elephant in the room, his special ability. At no point does his Techspecs say 'invisibility'. He can create mirages of himself. But I must admit, to dumb young me it wasn't clear what his "electro-disruptor' was or could do, so when he was invisible in the cartoon I just accepted it (although even then I was unconvinced they'd got it right).


But he's Mirage. One of the most fascinating and intricate characters of the entire franchise, which probably means he's one the least best served. He's done ok though.

And I never considered him a bad guy, just unsure of what he's doing. As Fort Max says, a rich-bot caught up in something that's got away from him.

[that_bluestreak]

Sept 1, 2024 23:10:19 GMT Philip Ayres said:

1984's Transformers Are Forty: Week 23Mirage
Function: Autobot Spy
Japan: 7 Ligier
tfwiki.net/wiki/Mirage_(G1)/toys#The_Transformers
www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/Mirage/mirage.htm

"Who and what I am I hide from the enemy."

Mirage is not thrilled about being an Autobot freedom fighter. Prefers hunting turbofoxes on Cybertron with his high-priced friends. Effective fighter, more effective intelligence gatherer. Electro-disrupter can cast illusions altering his physical placement and appearance for up to 6 minutes. Expert marksman with armor-piercing rocket-dart hunting rifle. Unsure of Autobot cause... can't be fully trusted.


Strength
6
Intelligence
9
Speed
7
Endurance
5
Rank
7
Courage
5
Firepower
6
Skill
10

Mirage oh yeah! I think Mirage was my first Autobot car, I definitely remember getting him for a birthday and he was beautiful. It was so sad when the inevitable snap happened... I've got an original and a KO, and the KO is good enough that it shows that HasTak could make a decent mould from an original. I would love to see him done in this new style with joints and stuff.

The art on his box is amazing, his tech-specs are brilliant, his character is really interesting. There is so much play potential in just that tech-spec alone. It made for so much storytelling. I hope that kids these days have access to something like that, because there is no characterisation on TFs boxes anymore.

In the comics he gets some nice characterisation in Power Play, was shown to be considered an important fighter in The Last Stand, some evocative art in Man Of Iron, had his skills used to great effect in The Enemy Within and Crisis of Command, and shown as a capable squad leader in Dinobot Hunt... that was about it until first Octane and then Starscream did for him. I was genuinely shocked by his death in G2 when I came across it. Some deaths you know they'll come back from and others you feel are final.

I loved his characterisation in IDW. Especially later... When I read JR's stuff about him getting visions from a build up of gamma-cybrobuteric acid I thought that was great. For those not down on obscure drugs this is a reference to gamma-hydroxybutyric acid, much used on the rave and gay scenes, of which heavy users / addicts often report complex and weird hallucinatory experiences and which causes temporary but unrousable unconsciousness if you take too much. Seemed appropriate to Mirage. Shame he got himself clean only to get the chop, goddam Star Sabre.

So yeah an absolute top-tier toy, a great and complex character. Fan-bloody-tastic

[that_bluestreak]

also related, just look at this race car. doesn't that make the heart pump with excitement, you can see mirage unfolding out of that vehicle. i've never bothered to check out his alt mode IRL before because i'm not really a cars person but man, that's quite something.

[Benn]

You should see him in motion!

[chrisl]

Sept 1, 2024 23:10:19 GMT Philip Ayres said:

1984's Transformers Are Forty: Week 23Mirage
Function: Autobot Spy
Japan: 7 Ligier
tfwiki.net/wiki/Mirage_(G1)/toys#The_Transformers
www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/Mirage/mirage.htm

"Who and what I am I hide from the enemy."

Mirage is not thrilled about being an Autobot freedom fighter. Prefers hunting turbofoxes on Cybertron with his high-priced friends. Effective fighter, more effective intelligence gatherer. Electro-disrupter can cast illusions altering his physical placement and appearance for up to 6 minutes. Expert marksman with armor-piercing rocket-dart hunting rifle. Unsure of Autobot cause... can't be fully trusted.


Strength
6
Intelligence
9
Speed
7
Endurance
5
Rank
7
Courage
5
Firepower
6
Skill
10

Totally different to the other designs of the time and probably my second favourite of the G1 Autobot cars after Jazz - Mirage was the one toy that I REALLY wanted as a kid, but never had. I did manage to pick up a pretty battered one at BotCon Europe 1999. But looking at the clean example, really brings back what a great looking toy he was.

On a side note - the business about the size differences between the cars and jets when they turn into robot mode is a strange one for me. I agree that the mass-shifting business is a bit odd, but I always thought that it made sense that they could be different sizes to each other in alternate mode but similar sizes as robots because because they don't have the same components as the earth vehicles and therefore don't require the same physical space. It just feels odd to us as human beings because we're approaching this topic from the perspective of human-technology orientated mechanical engineering. That is, because we know how big a jet engine is and how big a car engine is, we assume that the same amount of physical space is required in a Transformer and therefore Starscream and Prowl could not be roughly the same size as robots. If we assume that the actual working components are Cybertronian technology of equal size, then the "shell" parts that give their alternate modes their physical appearance could physically pack down so that the robots are roughly the same size. This could also explain why the mini-bots are similar sizes to the Autobot cars in vehicle mode but not in robot mode.

[The Doctor]

That's a good point.

-Ralph