Management

[andrewbcalculating]

I hope this is the right place for this thread as I'm looking for serious responses.

My manager brought to my attention that the University has a budget to fund vocational training for its support staff. I want a career at the Faculty and so I want to move up the employment ladder. The positions above me are senior technician and then manager and it is my ambition to ultimately get to management level. So I've just spoke to someone in Personnel with regards to trying to obtain management qualifications through this vocational training budget.

The reason for this thread is to therefore ask is anyone on the Hub a manager and is there anything they would recommend in getting to management level?

Thank you in advance.

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[Grand Moff Muffin]

'Fraid not. I'm still on the same grade I was when I started 6+ years ago, and the next grade up generally involves some line management responsibilities. For that reason I will probably never apply for a higher grade job. Me, I just like being responsible for the quality of my own work. If I had to be responsible for others' output, I think I'd be too much of a control freak.

I've had two substantial jobs with unbelievably different management styles - the first a far bigger control freak than I would ever be, the current one completely hands-off. The first one was great for learning for a few years, but I'm loving the new freedom/autonomy.

Martin

[Deleted]

I'm with Martin on this. I'd rather be a worker working on my own or as part of a team than a supervisor or manager. Saying that though for the past fortnight I've been the stand-in supervisor of a department while the current supervisor is on holiday. It isn't bad but its not the kind of role I'd like to take up permanently. Kudos to you Andrew though for wanting to move up the ladder - managers who have had hands-on experience on the lower end of the employment ladder are the kind of managers I like. All of the gaffers at my workplace have come in at the top level and have no experience on the factory floor. As such they think that when the workers complain they are just miserable bastards.

[andrewbcalculating]

From what I've gathered from talking to your good self Martin in the past and reading what you have written Zudobug, I would guess that your current roles cover more responsibility than the management role above me so I admire you both for the jobs you do.
There are current parts of the senior technician role above me that I feel I could improve upon even now and getting qualifications I think will only aid my cause in getting to that level first off. I would guess that there is a lot about the management position above me that I don't even know existed right now but I don't consider myself stupid so I think I could be taught about what as yet I don't know.
I know that retail is a funny industry but I've worked under some retail managers who I can't understand how they got to the level of manager as I felt that I could have done a better job than them and with that experience I feel that I could progress up to the management level above me eventually. The fact is that if I didn't feel I had the qualities to get to the management position, I wouldn't be considering trying to get to that level and also if I felt that the job would be too much for me too handle then I definitely wouldn't be considering it. Like everyone I guess, I want an easy life and I know my limits.

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[Grand Moff Muffin]

Andy T's a manager. Speak up, Andy!

Martin

[Andy Turnbull]

Heh! To be honest it varies from company to company. Though I'm a curious hybrid of supervisor/manager in my current role (for however long I remain there....). All I will say is the best way to get in is to show willing in terms of the training courses and the like. Usually that's the first in. The second is to approach your boss directly and say you want to progress (not necessarily into their role) and usually if they are a good egg they will start to help you along the way, either by showing you how to do their job, or delegating a few of the tasks to you to give you a grounding in what you need. The man management side of it is a different beast altogether. To a certain extent you can learn what is required to be capable but if you have it already it will make life easier. Being responsible for other people can be something that isn't for everyone. There's few things more pleasing to a manager (a good manager that is) than being able to help staff who work for you to progress. It lets you know you are doing a good job.

Oh and any internal position you apply for make sure your covering letter is good. Having been involved in the recruitment side on occasion I can tell you now that if your letter isn't up to snuff they will not even look at your cv, application form.

Andy

[Bogatan]

Having only briefly been in a senior position all I can do is make an observation from my own experience.

bar manager doesnt spend all the time behind the bar.

Supermarket managers dont serve customers.

Animation supervisors dont animate.

If your in a job and its something you enjoy then promotion may mean you stop doing the bit you actually enjoy.

My cousin ran a pub and loved it but his favourite part was always serving behind the bar and didnt get to do that as much once he was running the place. For almost the exact opposite reason I really enjoyed my brief stint as an epos clerk because of the extra responsibilities and not having to deal with customers quite so much.

Andy

[Andy Turnbull]

I have to say that having been a manager now I find it difficult to deal with customers as I used to have to do prior to my move. The main reason being as a customer advisor you have next to no authority and at times end up being something of a doormat to the unreasonable punter. As a manager I can quite cheerfully if required layeth the smacketh down and going back to the "old ways" just doesn't sit well with me.

Andy

[The Doctor]

I had the fire lit under my ass re: 'you'll go far' so many times it became meaningless. I just never cultivated the habit of sucking up to arseholes, which is pretty much what you need to do to get ahead in social care. I've tended to make enemies of those in charge as, in my experience, the vast majority of people in charge of such organisations don't give a shit about the individuals they are paid to support. Lots of ego trips, people wanting power for its own sake. Oh well. It's bothered me more in the sense of not being paid appropriately for my work and experience rather than having a silly title.

Rant over. I now return you to your regularly schedule thread!

-Ralph

[chrisl]

Jul 23, 2008 10:31:11 GMT andrewbcalculating said:

I hope this is the right place for this thread as I'm looking for serious responses.

My manager brought to my attention that the University has a budget to fund vocational training for its support staff. I want a career at the Faculty and so I want to move up the employment ladder. The positions above me are senior technician and then manager and it is my ambition to ultimately get to management level. So I've just spoke to someone in Personnel with regards to trying to obtain management qualifications through this vocational training budget.

The reason for this thread is to therefore ask is anyone on the Hub a manager and is there anything they would recommend in getting to management level?

Thank you in advance.

|<o>|

As someone with similar plans to yourself who has been working as university support staff for years, I'm afraid you may be stuck between a rock and a hard place in terms of progressing to management.

What you will be entitled to under university staff development budgets is 99% of the time tied to your present job which if does not include management responsibilities means you will not be funded for any management training as it is outside your role. The vocational training your manager mentioned will probably be technican type training based around enhancing your skills base for your current role as oppossed to your preferred career development.

Also the only way you can progress into management in the HE sector is either to leave your institution for another one where an opening exists - which is only possible if you have management experience. Or wait for the senior technician to leave and hope you get their job, then (assuming the senior technician has management responsibilities) wait for their boss to leave and get theirs. Even if you paid out of your own pocket to do a private management course they wouldn't create a new role for you or expand your role (CF HERA process) to encorporate management responsibilities.

In my experience trying to progress is only possible if your boss progresses and wants to take you with them / ensure you get their old job.

Sorry if that sounds pretty negative, but 3 years of being in this position myself and making similar attempts has left a bad impression on me.

[KnightBeat]

Apologies for keeping my earlier post a bit short.

There are quite a few IT related jobs in universities that cover system administration, programming and research. These jobs exist in research departments, rather than student-centric departments. For instance, the Doctor's university in Glasgow has a large research department on information management that is quite a good place to work, by all accounts. They may provide you with more varied work. I do some work in the field and may be may able to give you pointers on relevant departments in your own university, if you're interested.

On the topic of management qualifications, I'd suggest Prince2. Much of the teaching is common sense that can be applied to any situation, but it seems to get respect in many areas. It's also much cheaper to get in comparison to other management qualifications.

[Mark_Stevenson]

I wound up falling accidentally into a middle-management position, through a combination of being offered a far more involved position than the one I applied for, followed by a sudden attack of maternity leave. It's been challenging and periodically fun but I'm kinda looking forward to not doing it any more... I've even wound up doing sales, and I hate sales.

Mx

[Deleted]

Jul 25, 2008 12:03:33 GMT The Doctor said:

I just never cultivated the habit of sucking up to arseholes, which is pretty much what you need to do to get ahead in social care. I've tended to make enemies of those in charge as, in my experience, the vast majority of people in charge of such organisations don't give a shit about the individuals they are paid to support. Lots of ego trips, people wanting power for its own sake.

There are far too many managers at my workplace who just want the title but not the responsibilities that come with it. There are also a large number of arsehole creepers on the factory floor that constantly suck up to the gaffers. It's these people who are respected the most by the managers while the other workers are kicked around the floor like shit. I work for a factory run by meat firm Tulip Ltd and it is my opinion that they are trying to monopolise the meat industry in the UK as they are into a habit of buying up rival factories and subsequently closing them down. When one of their newly acquired factories are shut down the workers have to end up looking for another job while the managers are transferred to other Tulip Ltd factories in the country hence why my factory has far more gaffers than there need be.

[Shockprowl]

Two things come into my mind reading through this. First is what Andy Bogatan said 'bout being a manager means you leave the work behind that you were doing. In the Ambulance service you can't be a manager unless you leave the road, which I don't want to do (there is another possibility which is training, which you can do on the road, which I'd like to get into one day...). The other is the point Doc' made 'bout manager in the Social/Health Care world. Gotta be carefull what I say, but there are so many managers having a power trip, it's unbeleivable.

I've worked as a supervisor in a previous life in tele-customer services, and I found a certain amount of sucking up was required, being a yes man to suit your own ends. It's like shaking hands with the devil in a way, but if it serves your purpose you gotta do it.

[dyrl]

I can't believe how much I keep agreeing with Ralph about everything.

I'm very bad with people - always have been. I could never get along, and if I were to manage them, the first thing I'd do is fire the lot and hire someone else whom I could actually bear to be around So... not a good role model on that side of things!

The one manager I did like is a fellow who I still work for, albeit in a different and better capacity. His management style was to drink vodka from morning till night - on weekdays as well - and demand it of his staff. In fact, I recall coming to work one morning still drunk - not even hung over yet - and wondering whether I should maybe go home to throw up...but he assured me that being drunk at work will only enhance my productivity - or something....

Another good idea - if you can't work with most people and are only compatible with alcoholics is to start your own business.

I started my own business last November. I'm not rich yet - far from it - but I'm hacking it, and I have to say that I'm happy because at the end of the day, I answer to myself. The people I encounter in my business are either a) customers (never had a problem being nice to them, b) intermediaries like customs agents, postmen etc etc - and here it's a pure business relationship - you just have to understand what the interest of your business partner is - what is most profitable for them - and then you can use your whit to come to a compromise.

So - for me personally - I would say: if you are the type who can work in an institution and likes interacting with people and wondering what they think of you behind your back - you are maybe management material.

If you are like me - or Ralph - start your own business or drink heavily.

Pete

[The Doctor]

*opens beer*

-Ralph