"Wrestling's Fake"

[Hero]

OK…

I like wrestling.

I’ve been a spectator since I was six, had a short stint as an indy performer, spar every once in a while and pay ridiculous amounts in subscription so the wife and I can view the regular programming on SKY.

So, every now and then I am greeted with the usual ignorant comment from various people.

“Wrestling’s FAKE”

Now usually I find that comment comes from those who either don’t know what they are talking about or those who just take the scripted nature of wrestling out of context.

Yes, wrestling matches are ‘put on’. It’s a performance, a spectacle, and a story - like ballet with fight scenes and arguing. Most of these put on ‘stories’ are 90% winged with only a start, middle and end to go by. And of course the referee as a ‘go between’ helps the structure all too well. 

However, you can’t fake gravity. You step through those ropes, you’ll get bruised battered and maybe get knocked out once in a while.

Wrestling itself isn’t just a grunt-fest of body slams and punching. There is a massive thinking mans element behind it all that delves into psychology and having to think on ones feet for it all to make sense.

Most grown up Wrestling fans are smart. They critique the performance of the entertainers out there who sacrifice a lot for the local ticket paying crowd and the global audience watching on screens worldwide. Some fans judge the storyline, some fans give props to how well the performance looked and some fans are just plain harsh and can never be pleased.

I challenge anyone and anywhere who states that wrestling is ‘fake’ to: look up a local wrestling school, attend a training session and book the day after free (Trust me, its needed). A wrestling ring in person is a lot more intimidating than on TV, those ropes will hurt you the first time and I guarantee that even after taking the basic bumps - getting up the next morning will be difficult. Those who keep at it develop a thicker skin for this.

There are professional performers who sacrifice time and home life to go out on the road and do this stuff every day as well as Independent performers who don’t get their bills paid through wrestling but still strive to put in 200% no matter how big/small the audience is. Saying ‘Wrestling is fake’ is a slap in the face to these hard working, passion-fuelled people, some of whom I have had the pleasure to share a ‘locker room’ with.

The old saying goes: Don’t knock it, unless you tried it (or understand it). This certainly applies to those who naysay towards wrestling.

[karla]

no........its not true

[Stomski]

I think most people's problem isn't with wrestling itself as no one is going to deny that things can go wrong. Moreso it's with the fans that don't understand it like you do, just think it's cool and buy in to the gimmicks.

If you ever want to argue your point about wrestling as entertainment and performers having to improvise, just use the Hogan vs Andre The Giant at WrestleMania 3 example.

Hogan tries to powerslam Andre at the start of the match, fails because Andre is so heavy, falls, injuring his back and nearly loses the match as he's pinned. Andre realises Hogan's hurt and buys time by appealing to the ref about the count. Put this in to context... Yes it's fake, but fans had massive expectation about that match and the two entertainers worked together to keep it going. Imagine if the pin had counted? Everyone would have felt cheated, but it would have been real.

There's also a lot going on behind the scenes in terms of the types of wrestler/character. Face/heel/baby face/jobber... It's all quite interesting when done well. Unfortunately though, whenever I do catch WWE/TNA these days at a friend's house, it's just terrible.

[Gav]

The way I look at it - wrestling is just as valid a form of entertainment as anything else. Nobody moans about Eastenders being fake, or that Coronation Street isn't realistic - I think it's just an easy target for people who don't understand the business.

It's an interesting and enjoyable distraction - involving some incredible feats of althetic ability. Long live Sports Entertainment!

[Hero]

I really need to watch Andre VS Hulk again sometime. Did you know Andre downed 17 bottles of wine before that match? That match certainly is a good example indeed of improvising.

Undertaker VS Mankind (Hell in a Cell) from 1998 is another example when Foley fell through the cage (after falling off already) and had been knocked out when Taker accidentally headbutted him. Terry Funk had to come in and get chokeslammed out of his shoes to help buy some time (at a point the match should have ended already). In any case nobody could say that the first spot before with Foley/Mankind being thrown off the cage was faked, especially since it was'nt properly planned and Undertaker also did'nt want to do it (imagine that on ones consience). When I met Foley back in 2005, he said the spot was Terry Funk's idea.

Most matches have 'rest spots' too to help a groggy grappler regain his/her senses. Usually they are hidden in the form of a submission holds etc. Perhaps I should'nt leak too much of the illusion .

TNA is awful right now. Too many gimmick matches squashed together and awful booking.

===KEN

[blueshift]

Eastenders is fake???

[Hero]

It will be even more fake when the set moves to Cardiff.

[Stomski]

Oh geez yeah... That Foley/Undertaker thing was crazy.

Maybe it's the fact that some of the wrestlers do over sell how much certain moves hurt... Like Pedigree, Atomic Leg Drop etc. Yes they can go wrong, but sometimes it can be patronising when an opponent screams out in pain when they're clearly not hurt. I guess that's part of the skill of the wrestler's acting though... The ability to sell moves.

One of the few things I didn't like about The Rock was that in submission and sleeper holds I could never quite believe it.

[Gav]

Feb 18, 2009 11:18:31 GMT blueshift said:

Eastenders is fake???

You can tell that their emotional pain isn't real, they don't sell it very well.

I can't wait for Dot Cotton to turn heel after the Xmas episode this year.

[Gav]

Feb 18, 2009 15:25:17 GMT Stomski said:

Oh geez yeah... That Foley/Undertaker thing was crazy.

Maybe it's the fact that some of the wrestlers do over sell how much certain moves hurt... Like Pedigree, Atomic Leg Drop etc. Yes they can go wrong, but sometimes it can be patronising when an opponent screams out in pain when they're clearly not hurt. I guess that's part of the skill of the wrestler's acting though... The ability to sell moves.

One of the few things I didn't like about The Rock was that in submission and sleeper holds I could never quite believe it.

For me, a lot of it is down to suspension of disbelief.

I love that if a move is performed by a particular wrestler, it's more devastating than if someone else performed it.

For example, someone can take dozens of elbow drops during a match and appear fine- but as soon as The Rock does his 'People's Elbow' - it is the deciding factor in winning a match. Why is HIS elbow more powerful than anyone elses?

Charisma!

[Hero]

I love that if a move is performed by a particular wrestler, it's more devastating than if someone else performed it.

I think that too and it adds to the realism that the performer has mastered that move. RVD for example does a Frog Splash, but he can execute that move anywhere in the ring.

Maybe it's the fact that some of the wrestlers do over sell how much certain moves hurt... Like Pedigree, Atomic Leg Drop etc. Yes they can go wrong, but sometimes it can be patronising when an opponent screams out in pain when they're clearly not hurt. I guess that's part of the skill of the wrestler's acting though... The ability to sell moves.

Sometimes certain wrestlers 'stiff' the other one if they don't think they are selling well enough. Then the pain is legit. Undertaker VS Chris Masters matches are a good example. Also the Crusher Hogan issue of Spiderman's Tangled web also has an insight to stiffing and straight shooting. Some wrestlers have a big issue with underselling from their opponent because it makes them look bad too. You can imagine how worse something looks to a live crowd if it looks bad on TV too and then being told off backstage for it.

Sometimes overselling is part of putting the other person over, even though it is cred killing.

Usually if you are legitimately injured in a match you have to stay still and either dead weight yourself and blink. The refferee's job is also to legitimatley check over the wrestler, talk to them, and call for the bell if things are bad. Some get risky enough to finish thier bout, Stone Cold Steve Austin VS Owen Hart for example or more recentley John Cena VS Mr Kennedy where you could tell he communicated to Kennedy to end the match early after screwing his arm up in a simple hip toss gone wrong.

I nearly broke my leg in a hip toss myself. A small move that can go horribly wrong if done bad. Arm Drags are even worse.

Vince McMahon is definitley Hollywood'ising his performers too. From what I understand now, his wrestlers are now contracted as Entertainers instead. I guess that is becaue the WWE is beyond being just a promotion now but a global media umbrella.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I don't care for wrestling, but I'm entering the ring (this thread) in the hopes of perhaps shedding light on the psychology of someone who doesn't care for it.

I've looked at wrestling from time to time - sometimes when channel-hopping in a hotel room when I have nothing better to do. My reaction, I'll be completely honest here, has always been "Why would a heterosexual male find this in any way entertaining?" But my lack of enthusiasm isn't so much because I know it's fake/scripted (I feel the same way about rugby and other macho male sports which aren't scripted) as that I don't see any reason to care about what's happening. I see they're attempting to construct some sort of story, with created characters and so on, but it seems a poor kind of story, about men who interact with each other by fighting in a ring, for no particular reason.

I enjoy watching fake/scripted fighting in movies and TV shows where there is a story behind it, such as a martial arts expert trying to overthrow a cruel emperor who oppresses his people, or a gunslinger defending a helpless village, or a knight on a quest, a secret agent trying to save the world, or what-not. The fights are just components of a wider story, and while the fights make the action scenes, the key plot points are non-fight-related.

However, in wrestling, the guys just seem to be in it to fight each other, in a ring, with a referee, without any apparent good reason to fight (to a casual observer). And that gives the casual observer the impression that the characters being played must be rather stupid.

Martin

[kimkaze]

Hmm. Colour me interested.

Wrestling is staged, but it's anything but fake. On a good episode of Raw, Smackdown or even ECW/TNA, you can see storylines unfolding but to be frank, one would need to watch at least a whole episode to actually know what was going on, just as one would with any soap opera. Five minutes in the middle of a match would just appear to be a fight, and I can't blame people for having that viewpoint.

All I'll say is, the ropes hurt, the ring canvas hurts, the metal bars hurt and even kendo sticks flipping hurt. The first time I had a double hip toss done on me, I was certain I was paralysed for life. It felt like lightning travelling up my spine.

I have loved and watched wrestling in one of it's many guises for years now, as well as helped to write, direct and act in a backyard promotion. I have trained in a real ring and I pay far too much to Sky for the priv' of watching WWE

As for it being only for 'heterosexual males', I'm a female and I love it

Smile now

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Welcome to the latest Hub, George.

Wrestling's appeal to other heterosexual males I may struggle to fathom, but I can certainly see why a woman might enjoy watching it.

Martin

[Hero]

Feb 18, 2009 18:27:50 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

However, in wrestling, the guys just seem to be in it to fight each other, in a ring, with a referee, without any apparent good reason to fight (to a casual observer). And that gives the casual observer the impression that the characters being played must be rather stupid.

I think you would like MMA even less, Martin. And even then, the legit fights in that end in a matter of seconds.

A wrestling match in short is a basic story balanced out between two characters one good and one bad. The bout plays out in pantomime style. The ethos of a match usually is not what they are doing but why they are doing it. Each match is a story based on the performance of the contest through selling, using certain moves, how the characters behave and interact with the crowd etc. I can certainly understand about not buying into a match if you don't know the characters. I've certainly had less enthusiasm to watch a match when I don't know who's in it but would sometimes view it to see what say "Jason Hagger" is all about.

Bigger wrestling companies (like WWE) can decorate this and make more sense of it all with a regular TV storyline, build up videos (normally as video montages of past interactions and in ring promos and other drama) and commentators who explain the events and why the match is happening. These addded ingredients help explain to the viewer not what they wrestlers are doing but why they are doing it as an explaination to the casual observer or a recap to the regular viewer.

Normally live Independant wrestling performances are put on with a card of people lined up just to wrestle each other and that's it. It's a local audience thing more than a global.

Most Independant promotions can't pull off the same TV style narrative to explain thier matchups and the events are near enough a 'what you see is what you get' thing. The interest in the matches alone can only rely on the look of the combatants and how they weigh up and balance out in comparison.

On a side note. Women's wrestling is really picking up too. I am really proud of a friend of mine on the scene has really climbed up the ranks. I am really pleased to see on TV right now that women grapplers are booked to also put on a great match as well as the men (no more Diva Search rubbish!). If these women happen to be attractive, that's secondary to them being wrestlers.

[andrewbcalculating]

I've been without Sky since 2005 so I haven't seen any wrestling on TV since then but I think the core goal of the wrestlers is to be seen to be the best wrestler amongst their peers. The storylines themselves seem to take place outside the ring and act as a build up or a reason for the wrestlers to square off against each other with that core goal of being the best then being put to the test during the match.

I think the storyline I've liked best was the New World Order one in WCW. It felt really tense waiting to know who would be the next wrestler joining the New World Order and I think seeing Sting go on a seemingly one man crusade against the NWO.

|<o>|

[The Doctor]

I will admit that I just don't 'get' wrestling, but then I'm not really a sports fan anyway. But if it makes people happy then no harm done I say.

-Ralph

[Stomski]

What's not to get?

[Andy Turnbull]

To be honest I really couldn't give a stuff whether people care about my hobbies or not. I've lost count of the amount of strange looks i have had when sitting with Ralph and co. in pubs when we get out the Transformer toys. The same is true of my love of wrestling, but I know equally as many people who like it as don't. I can't say the fact that people not liking it is going to stop my enjoyment of it and I think it's daft to let opinions influence you.

If you like it, bash on.

Oh and Stomski, have some karma for showing us THE MOST ELECTRIFYING MAN IN SPORTS AND ENTERTAINMENT!!

Andy

[Deleted]

Wrestlings main problem is that people and TV producers take full advantage of the whole 'wrestling is fake' debate. When I was at school I used to love watching WWF and even collected a set of collector cards on all of the wrestlers (which I still have) but these days I can't get into it. With the advent of multiple channels on TV there are digital stations that broadcast the seedy wrestling series which are quite obviously fake like women's wrestling (where the competitors fight in tiny bikini's no less) and prop wrestling where the main aim of each fight is to see how many deliberately loosely assembled chairs and tables can be smacked over competitors heads.

The most entertaining wrestling for me however has to be the classic British wrestling we used to watch on Saturday dinnertimes as a youngster with stars such as Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks. These matches were quite obviously faked and they never tried to hide the fact either. I remember one family holiday when I was very young where we watched a live British wrestling match and prior to the fight the wrestlers themselves even assisted in assembling the ring!

[Hero]

Mar 10, 2009 22:28:58 GMT @zudobug said:

Wrestlings main problem is that people and TV producers take full advantage of the whole 'wrestling is fake' debate. When I was at school I used to love watching WWF and even collected a set of collector cards on all of the wrestlers (which I still have) but these days I can't get into it. With the advent of multiple channels on TV there are digital stations that broadcast the seedy wrestling series which are quite obviously fake like women's wrestling (where the competitors fight in tiny bikini's no less) and prop wrestling where the main aim of each fight is to see how many deliberately loosely assembled chairs and tables can be smacked over competitors heads.

The most entertaining wrestling for me however has to be the classic British wrestling we used to watch on Saturday dinnertimes as a youngster with stars such as Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks. These matches were quite obviously faked and they never tried to hide the fact either. I remember one family holiday when I was very young where we watched a live British wrestling match and prior to the fight the wrestlers themselves even assisted in assembling the ring!

The women's wrestling itself has changed a lot over the last couple of years with stuff like pillow fights and evening gown matches being long gone. Women's wrestling is definitley now marketed just as competitive as the mens.

'Garbage Matches' as well have been toned down and also less used. Critisism in the back is, when they happen too often the fans are numb to the reaction of a chairshot after seeing it for the third time or probably in another match if the booker has booked more than one hardcore bout on a show. Crimson Masking (or Blade Jobs) still happen when possible, and that is in no way fake.

The Independant scene will always have workers doubling up as sound system, ring crew etc and usually it works out fine in that we are self assured the ring is stable to wrestle in and the ropes are sturdy enough. A bit of a kayfabe break however.

===KEN

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Well anyway, sumo wrestling isn't fake.

Martin