Sayings: true or stupid?

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Like, I'm sure, the rest of you, some common sayings make my blood boil. "There's no smoke without fire," is an obvious one, which is equivalent to saying, "Suspects are always guilty."

Let's see if the Transformers are any more sensible in their guiding principles:

Bluestreak - "I never met a Decepticon I didn't dislike." Not really a saying so much as a statement of fact. Have to take his word for it.

Brawn - "Might over microchips." A bit vague. Its truth value depends on the context, I suppose. Not very helpful.

Bumblebee - "The least likely can be the most dangerous." OK, that's not bad. It undermines the sensible practice of basing one's actions on risk, but at least acknowledges that however well-founded your beliefs, there is always a chance that the evidence will mislead you.

Buzzsaw - "My bite is worse than my bark." A strange saying for a bird.

Cliffjumper - "Strike first, strike fast, strike hard." Hm, a kindred spirit with George W Bush, methinks. No moral justification, no exit strategy.

Frenzy - "Sow panic and surrender will bloom." Probably true under certain circumstances, but easy to argue against. Couldn't it be equally effective, for example, to obtain your enemies' surrender by converting them to your cause, or by wiping them out in a single strike?

Gears - "Nobody wins a war - somebody loses." I like this one. Very true. Not that wars are never necessary or justified, but having to resort even to a necessary or just war is a failure on the part of the species, and while it may result in the 'victor' being less of a loser than he would have been had he not fought, the loss of life incurred in the process is still a net loss.

Hound - "Observe everything, remember even more." What, you mean fill in the gaps by making stuff up? Shame on you, Hound!

Huffer - "Molecular structure is the key to success." Um, OK. Like Brawn's it probably applies to his specialist area, but doesn't have much wider application to life.

Ironhide - "High tech circuitry is no replacement for guts." I wouldn't want to pre-judge medical advances to comment on the literal truth of this statement. As a figure of speech, it's difficult to say. However brave you might be, you may still lose if the other guy has superior technology. On the other hand, they may underestimate your tenacity. So, a worthless statement, neither more true nor more false than its converse.

Jazz - "Do it with style or don't bother doing it." Nonsense. Do it with style if it makes you happy, but that's not really the important thing in life.

Laserbeak - "The only point I like in the Autobots: melting point." The only 1984 Transformer to make a witticism. Karma to him.

Megatron - "Everything is fodder." True, but hardly a motivational catchphrase. "Peace through tyranny." Yes, I suppose that a supreme tyrant can enforce peace if his grip is tight enough or, as with Augustus Caesar, if he delivers properity and security for his people. But it's not a stable peace, as it is finely balanced and falls with the removal of the keystone. A better peace would not be dependent on its leader for survival.

Mirage - "Who and what I am I had from the enemy." Can't really comment. Like Bluestreak, it's more a personal statement of fact.

Optimus Prime - "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings." Not really. Freedom isn't the right of someone who goes off alone without any means of communication and accidentally gets trapped in a cave. Or someone who commits horrendous crimes. Or children who have yet to mature. I would say, "All sentient beings have a responsibility to uphold the freedoms of other responsible beings as equitably as they can." Yes, Optimus is an idealist, but I don't think even he would apply his motto in all circumstances.

Prowl - "Logic is the ultimate weapon." A pointless saying, completely unprovable, and thus illogical. How did Prowl deduce that logic, rather than loyalty, or luck, or courage, or psychology, or technology, or training, deserved the title "ultimate"?

Ratchet - "You break it, I'll remake it." See Bluestreak and Mirage.

Ravage - "Today's Autobots are tomorrow's scrap metal." Probably true, but equally true of Decepticons. Not helpful.

Rumble - "Destroy what's below and what's above will follow." I suppose there's a certain scientific truth in that, given the force of gravity, but it's hardly profound. And how do you apply it in outer space?

Sideswipe - "I don't break the rules, I bend them - a lot." Rubbish. Either you abide by a rule or you break it. If a rule could bend it wouldn't be a rule, it would be a guideline.

Skywarp - "Strike when the enemy isn't looking." This is wisdom.

Soundwave - "Cries and screams are music to my ears." Each to his own.

Starscream - "Conquest is made of the ashes of one's enemies." The way Starscream operates, if he succeeds everyone will be reduced to ashes but himself, and he will rule over ashes. Is that victory?

Sunstreaker - "They can't beat the best." Yes they can.

Thundercracker - "The deadliest weapon is terror." See Prowl.

Trailbreaker - "An Autobot is as good as the fuel in his tank." No, you could have excellent fuel in a crappy Autobot.

Wheeljack - "Never do what your enemy expects you to do." This is wisdom.

Windcharger - "Quick action equals quick victory." See Cliffjumper.

So, who are the wise ones? I give the top spot to Gears, with Bumblebee, Skywarp and Wheeljack in joint second place.

Any differing viewpoints on the merits of these mottoes?

Any other sayings (TF or real-world) you would like to recommend to fellow Hubbers or deplore as false?

Martin

[The Doctor]

Off-topic: the above would make a for a fun side-bar in the AA mag or Hubris or something like that.

-Ralph

[dyrl]

I recomend just about everything that the Turbomasters and Predators had to say, which could be summed up as "I am fearless!" "My enemies run before my awesome might!" "No one is a powerful as me!" "Fast and strong - that is me!" "I will destroy you all!" and equally imaginate mottos... in fact, G2 (new) was no better.

So, despite their shortcomings, at least the G1 mottos had some whit and thoughtfulness to them - more so than what came after...

Pete

[Deleted]

Jasper Carrott once did a great sketch on idiotic sayings.

'You'll have somebody's eye out with that' - it isn't possible to extract an eyeball with whatever object they're referring to (unless it's some kind of tool that can be used for such a purpose).

'He won't get there any quicker' - a term people use especially on the road when a faster car speeds past your motor.

[Shockprowl]

Martin, what a brilliant thread! Pure genious! Even though you DARED to call the Mighty Prowl illogical!

Partic like the Sideswipe comment that if can bend it it isn't a rule it's a guideline!

[legios]

May 4, 2009 7:23:24 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

suppose. Not very helpful.

Bumblebee - "The least likely can be the most dangerous." OK, that's not bad. It undermines the sensible practice of basing one's actions on risk, but at least acknowledges that however well-founded your beliefs, there is always a chance that the evidence will mislead you.

Makes sense as the motto of an espionage agent. He is exactly the kind of 'bot to anticipate that the real threat will come from someone who looks like a friend, not a foe. In the sort of unclear world that he probably operated in it is likely a maxim that would improve your lifespan.

Cliffjumper - "Strike first, strike fast, strike hard." Hm, a kindred spirit with George W Bush, methinks. No moral justification, no exit strategy.

Is it wrong that I can easily imagine Cliffjumper and Donald Rumsfeld having a great time shooting quail together whilst discussing military theory? (Oh good grief. Cliffjumper as a contributor to the development of the Manuever Warfare doctrine.... it would explain a lot really).

"Among the mysteries of science lies the key to victory" says Jetfire. Hmm, not so sure about this one. It is somewhat the inverse of Ironhide's motto. In itself it reflects a touching faith in the ability of science and technology to provide the tools to deal with any problem. I'm not sure that it holds up in the field of warfare though. Better technology is rarely a guarantee of ultimate victory - ask any of the innumerable people who have invaded Afghanistan in the last few centuries. More of an expression of hope than anything else I would say.

Shockwave would have us remember that - "Clarity of thought before rashness of action." He may be a one-eyed, tyrannical evil robot from space, but I do think he has something here. All things being equal it is often better to go into a situation with a clear plan than to simply do the first thing that comes into ones mind. There is some good advice in this one I would say.

Stepping outside one of Transformers, I often find myself reflecting on the Roman maxim "Qui Custodes Ipso Custodes?". Roughly translated "Who shall guard those self-same guardians?" or "Who watches the watchmen?". Always something to consider when you are setting in place checks and balances in any situation. What oversight is there for the people that you put in place to have oversight over things? Something always worthy of consideration I find.

Karl

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Another 27 budding Confuciuses:

Astrotrain - "In confusion there is opportunity." This is true.

Beachcomber - "Know the conflict within before facing the conflict without." Very deep, and, I would say, wise. To act effectively, you must know the extent of your own capacity for sound judgement - you must know which little voices to listen to and which to suppress. And question your own worth before judging others.

Blitzwing - "Destroy first, think later." See Cliffjumper, Windcharger, Devastator and George W Bush.

Bombshell - "The mind is my playpen." A statement of fact.

Bonecrusher - "Hit it till it stands no taller than dust." The guy has anger issues.

Cosmos - "Reach for the stars, but never leave your friends." Don't you just want to give him a big hug?

Devastator - "Thinking and winning do not mix." Wrongo.

Dirge - "Fear is the element that unites all losers." Er... except the brave ones.

Grapple - "Beauty is in everything except war." I want to agree with him, but just can't. There are other ugly things in this world, both physical and abstract.

Hoist - "You have to be rolling before you can be fighting." In other words, you must be fit to fight. Fair enough.

Hook - "Strive for perfection even if others must suffer." Not the right path.

Inferno - "Where there's smoke, there's me." A less harmful motto than, "Where there's smoke, there's fire," but equally untrue.

Kickback - "Friend is another word for fool." A formula for ending your days sad and lonely.

Long Haul - "A battle front is only as good as its supply line." This is wisdom.

Mixmaster - "How strong the steel, how quick the conquest." I would say that depends on what you do with the steel.

Powerglide - "To stop me, you have to catch me first." Sigh. The 1985 Mini-Autobots were doing so well up to this point.

Ramjet - "If it flies, crash it!" Well, it makes him happy.

Red Alert - "Caution can never be overused." Yes it can. Gotta let those kids fall over and graze their knees - it's part of growing up, y'know.

Scavenger - "Everything is worth something, even me." A healthy philosophy.

Scrapper - "My work is a monument to - and of - my enemies." A statement of fact rather than a piece of advice.

Seaspray - "Be unyielding as the ocean waves and your enemies shall fall." They might. Or they might get cheesed off with you and decide to smash your face in.

Shrapnel - "Control electricity and you control the world." Scarily true.

Skids - "Deep down, we are more like than unlike humans." Very perceptive. I would tend to agree.

Smokescreen - "A look can be deceiving: a touch can be lethal." True, I suppose, and it may be a candidate for the coolest-sounding motto. But I have no idea how one is expected to find a use for it in real life.

Thrust - "My engines' roar is my enemies' song of doom!" Exemplary use of apostrophes, I'll give him that much. And it has a certain poetic quality. Otherwise, no.

Tracks - "Looking good is what life is all about." Yeah, right. And you know something else, Tracks? "It's 'cos you're worth it." Poor deluded fool...

Warpath - "A good shot is worth more than a good intention." If what he's saying is, a good plan counts for nothing unless it is well executed, I'd go along with that.

Today's wise men: Astrotrain, Beachcomber, Cosmos, Hoist, Long Haul, Scavenger, Shrapnel, Skids and Warpath. And the prize goes to... Beachcomber. Whose motto is perhaps worryingly similar to Shockwave's, which Karl cited. Mind you, "Clarity of thought before rashness of action," could be interpreted as, "Clarity of thought first, then rashness of action," which is a bit silly. Beachcomber's is better.

Anybody fancy grading the Dinobots?

Martin

[grahamthomson]

Keep these motto commentaries coming Martin, I think they're fantastic! I hope you continue through to Micromasters and beyond!

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Thanks, Graham! But that's my entire toy collection and all my favourite characters done, so I was kind of hoping someone else would jump in with their own style...

Martin

[Deleted]

I'm sure Pat Lee had one or two sayings that people would comment on.

[mewshkin]

Jazz - "Do it with style or don't bother doing it." Nonsense. Do it with style if it makes you happy, but that's not really the important thing in life.

Arguable. Perhaps doing it with style got him noticed over equally effective but unflashy rivals, and perhaps by his enemies as well as the higher-ups on his side. Reputation is important. Who the f*** is 006?

Megatron - "Everything is fodder." True, but hardly a motivational catchphrase.

I took this as being based on Megatron's rise in an energy-poor environment. Everything is reduced to - does it gain us energy/power. If it doesn't, it is Nothing, worthless, destructible. A very powerful slogan, I would have thought.

"Peace through tyranny."

Everyone wants peace, even Megatron. Its a very worthwhile thought, remembering that we are supposed to see this "in the mirror", not agree. The question is not "Do we want peace", but "What kind of peace do we want".

Sideswipe - "I don't break the rules, I bend them - a lot." Rubbish. Either you abide by a rule or you break it. If a rule could bend it wouldn't be a rule, it would be a guideline.

He isn't really commenting on the nature of rules, but his own "Dirty Harry" nature, so this is in the category of Ratchet/Bluestreak/Mirage etc IMO. Still, I disagree with you, a rule can't be bent, but rules can.

Trailbreaker - "An Autobot is as good as the fuel in his tank." No, you could have excellent fuel in a crappy Autobot.

Again, more about the psychology of the autobot than profound truth. Trailbreaker has worth issues, and runs out of fuel a lot. Join the dots. There is also a valid strategic truth here, that its better having lower quality troops/weapons you are able to maintain in the field than superpowered stuff you can't. Its really a variation on Longhaul's dictum.

Windcharger - "Quick action equals quick victory." See Cliffjumper.

I disagree with your perspective on these two, and your shot at the Busheviks. Tactically, this is sound, if dogmatic. Initiative is an essential component of war, and this is really Wheeljack's motto from the other side; by forcing your enemy to react through your own speed of action, he becomes predictable.
And the Bushies, not the place to argue it I suppose, but it's uncontroversial that their strategy was a long time in the making, not rash, and rather more controversially that it has worked pretty well. In any case I don't see the parallel with poor little Cliffjumper.

Beachcomber - Broadly agree, but I would add that it works scaled up too. Understanding the conflicts within a faction/nation/transforming robot army can help you understand the conflicts in forces on others.

Grapple - "Beauty is in everything except war." At risk of sounding like Stephen Fry's brilliant caricature www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFD01r6ersw , Grapple is saying that there is Beauty IN everything except war, not that everything except war is beautiful. I'm sure I can explain the difference, I just don't feel like it.

Warpath - "A good shot is worth more than a good intention." If what he's saying is, a good plan counts for nothing unless it is well executed, I'd go along with that.

He'd rather have arseholes who can shoot straight on his side than terribly nice chaps who don't know which end to hold. I'm down with that. But after 6m years, how many of the latter are left anyway? And its hardly mutually exclusive, Prime can shoot pretty straight.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Cheers for taking up the challenge, Mewshkin!

May 15, 2009 23:33:51 GMT mewshkin said:

Reputation is important. Who the f*** is 006?

006 was the traitor played by Sean Bean in Goldeneye, but I'll pretend you asked "Who the f*** is 005?" And my answer would be, a more effective spy/saboteur than either Jazz or James Bond, because he is unknown. Does a spy really want to draw attention to himself and have his face recognised across the world? It makes for great movies, but poor real-world espionage.

And Jazz's motto doesn't say that style enhances actions, it says that actions are worthless without style, which is clearly not true.

Trailbreaker - "An Autobot is as good as the fuel in his tank." No, you could have excellent fuel in a crappy Autobot.

Its really a variation on Longhaul's dictum.

I wondered if anyone would challenge me on that, and I would say there's a world of difference between the two, namely the crucial use of the word 'only', the addition of which, I would say, would turn Trailbreaker's motto from being an untrue statement to a pearl of wisdom.

Windcharger - "Quick action equals quick victory." See Cliffjumper.

Tactically, this is sound, if dogmatic.

No, it isn't. Again, a single word makes all the difference between an untrue statement and a pearl of wisdom. Quick action may be one essential component for quick victory, but it doesn't _equal_ quick victory. "Quick victory requires quick action," would be fine. But as it stands, the motto implies that if you act quickly, you'll win, which is a recklessly dangerous sentiment.

Grapple - "Beauty is in everything except war." At risk of sounding like Stephen Fry's brilliant caricature www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFD01r6ersw , Grapple is saying that there is Beauty IN everything except war, not that everything except war is beautiful. I'm sure I can explain the difference, I just don't feel like it.

So where is the beauty in disease and famine? Where is the beauty in vomiting after binge-drinking? Where is the beauty in MPs' expenses? Probably easier to find beauty in war than in those things. But I'll admit I am being a pedant, and Grapple's heart is in the right place with his motto.

In summary, to make the mottoes safe to apply in practice:

Jazz should have said: "Do it with style if you are seeking to impress someone."

Sideswipe should have said: "I break rules, but not to an unacceptable degree."

Trailbreaker should have said: "An Autobot is only as good as the fuel in his tank."

Windcharger should have said: "Quick victory requires quick action."

Grapple should have said: "War is ugly."

Though these versions are less poetic and could use some work on that score.

Martin

[dyrl]

I have a question about the title of the topic - "stupid or true?"

This implies that stupid things can't be true

But they can - can't they? The truth can be stupid, no?

Pete

[Deleted]

The truth can definitely be stupid as evidenced by our own MP's with this expenses debate. They know that what they are doing is stupid but they don't care and anything that they do do is the truth.

[mewshkin]

I managed to agree with Pete without falling off my chair
Jazz's motto for example, is true for Jazz. If he didn't follow it, he'd be a better secret agent, but a worse Jazz.