Swearing, is it offensive?

[Stomski]

Where do you stand on swearing? I made a post on another forum and thought I'd cross post it here as I find this an interesting subject.

People use words without considering their original meaning. A lot of people use words that are considered offensive when substituting for a more appropriate word because they have a limited vocabulary.

This, I think, begins during adolescence when people have a lot of complicated emotions and don't know how to express themselves. Unfortunately for those who lack the patience to think of more appropriate words, or simply have a limited vocabulary due to, perhaps, a lack of education, they fall back to this habit; using swear words

However, language is ever evolving and changing. New words are invented every day and the meaning of certain words changes. It's just a shame that many words change meaning due to laziness and ignorance, not due to an evolution to progress humanity. That seems pretty offensive to me.

Let us consider the following well known poker phrase:

That is so f***ing sick.

There are two interesting points about this sentence-
1. F*** being used to emphasise a point.
2. The use of the word sick to mean incogitable.

Is F*** really the best adjective that the user could have used to add extra emphasis to their feeling?

The use of sick in the context of focusing on the cruel, morbid, bad taste etc. has been used for a while. This explains how the slang derived, however, is it really the best word to explain the users emotions here?

The fact remains however that we all come from different cultures and backgrounds. When these cultures come together, in order to communicate we need a common language. This language is defined, in this context, as English. You may not approve of all the rules and definitions, but if you wish to be part of a greater society as opposed to the little microcosm you and your friends exist in, you need to appreciate those rules and educate yourself such that you can communicate clearly and effectively with others. It seems very disrespectful to me that someone should undermine those who have put in the effort to be able to communicate on a wider scale. I find that pretty offensive.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I agree with most of your points, but I wouldn't call swearing offensive except in the sense that I find use of swear words ugly/unattractive/unflattering to the swearer. In all cases.

In terms of offensiveness, I would class swearing with smelling bad or having your shirt tucked into your underpants, rather than with racism and religious intolerance.

Martin

[Deleted]

I only swear in the workplace. When I'm at home or out somewhere I never swear because many of the people I know and also my own family are against swearing so I cut it out completely in such situations.

A syndrome exists called Tourette Syndrome which, the uneducated will tell you, is where you are prone to swearing all the time. The truth is that the syndrome has many different characteristics with that being just one of them. See this for more information
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette_syndrome
In the case of this syndrome being the addiction of swearing I believe that it is a voluntary syndrome not one a person is born with because if you never learn the swear words in the first place you can never suffer from the swearing version of Tourette's.

Swearing also ruined comedian Harry Enfield's career. He had great success on the BBC during the 80's and 90's but then decided to switch to Sky One for his next series. This series allowed him to create potty mouthed characters and the series was such a flop that he never had another series on TV again for the best part of a decade.

Swearing can also be amusing if used in the right context. I refer in this case to the Nintendo 64 computer game Conkers Bad Fur Day. This game was full of swearing but it was used in a highly humorous way that it became a lot less offensive. There are games however that use swearing as a means to drag in the potty mouthed crowds. PS2 games The Getaway (and its sequel) and the GTA games used swearing in such a way that it made me stop playing them. The words were over used and used so out of context that they seemed to have been put in just because the developers wanted to get the game a certificate 18 rating.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

You know, it's very odd how "damn it to hell" (formerly sanitised to 'darn', 'tarnation' and 'heck') is now considered extremely mild language, since there's nothing worse you can actually wish for anyone or anything than for them to be damned to hell.

Strange that people feel damning's too weak, and that references to bodily functions carry greater weight.

Martin

[Kingoji]

I swear ironically.

[The Doctor]

I don't find swearing automatically offensive, either in the use of it or swearing. It depends entirely on the context.

-Ralph

[Kingoji]

I will say this, however...

Oct 4, 2010 9:24:13 GMT Stomski said:

That is so f***ing sick.

The swearing in this statement doesn't bother me in the slightest. Swearing in general doesn't, unless it is the unquestionable motive of the person swearing to be threatening or offensive.

What bothers me is that there is now a slang variation of this phrase which is intended to make one believe that the subject of discussion is somehow impressive. "Sick" now equates to some as "Awesome".

I mean, why? How can a negative possibly be intended to describe something good? In all honesty, I'd say that kind of abuse of our ever degrading language is more offensive to me than swearing.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Oct 5, 2010 5:35:09 GMT Kingoji said:

"Sick" now equates to some as "Awesome"

Never come across that before. But it sounds like what happened with the word "wicked", which just meant "evil" until a couple of decades ago.

And mind you, "awesome" and "awful" originally meant pretty much the same thing - inspiring awe, i.e. terror or wonder. (You would apply it to a god, or a raging sea, or a range of mountains, but not to a nice surprise or bad behaviour or tasty/distasteful morsel.)

Language changes, which is fine - but it's a shame, I think, when it changes through the cheapening of words by over-use.

Martin

[blueshift]

'Bad' also now means 'good' thanks to the 80s.

Language is always evolving. One age's rude words are anothers perfectly fine ones, and vice versa. Do we reject Chaucer's works as vulgar because they include the c-word?

Language 'devolving' has always been a concern to people of every age. We may look back at the Victorian use of english with pride, but they were constantly worrying about THEIR use of english and looking back to earlier ages, and so on. Frankly, I think the use of 'text speak' is more worrying than swearing. Because it is horrid

Also, fun fact. This was once a perfectly acceptable and common street name: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gropecunt_Lane

Anyway, again to me, it all depends on context. I loathe swearing when used in a negative sense, but am perfectly happy with it when used in a positive.

[andrewbcalculating]

The whole concept of swearing has interested me in the past, why would a society invent swear words if they aren't meant to be used? Words that insult race or sexuality, I can understand why they would be frowned upon but why would the words s**t and f**k be offensive? I guess I don't know the history of those words, if I did then maybe I would have a better understanding.

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[Stomski]

Well quite, the reason why n***** is so offensive is to do with the history of the word's use, and throwing it around shows ignorance to (or worse, not caring about) slavery, race hate killings and the like.

So if you are aware and using the word in context, then it's ok.



Unfortunately, that particular word is now so overused by rappers etc. that for some it's starting to lose its meaning too.

[Cullen]

Oct 4, 2010 9:24:13 GMT Stomski said:

The fact remains however that we all come from different cultures and backgrounds. When these cultures come together, in order to communicate we need a common language. This language is defined, in this context, as English. You may not approve of all the rules and definitions, but if you wish to be part of a greater society as opposed to the little microcosm you and your friends exist in, you need to appreciate those rules and educate yourself such that you can communicate clearly and effectively with others. It seems very disrespectful to me that someone should undermine those who have put in the effort to be able to communicate on a wider scale. I find that pretty offensive.

You know what I find offensive? That people can place more emphasis on how something is said rather than what is being said. I review technical specifications in my job as do other team leaders. I know of several who will point out all the spelling and grammar mistakes in document but not comment on the solution at all (not even to say there's nothing wrong with it). Then the software gets delivered to the client and it doesn't work (I was going to say it's a bag of shite, hah). But at least the document read well!

When I review documents I place much more emphasis on the content. Yes I will point out spelling and grammar mistakes when I see them as it is 'important'. And by that I mean we are a professional organisation and I know that our clients won't want to read a document riddled with errors, and will look down on it, even if the solution is bang on. I place the same amount of importance on dressing smartly when going to client site. It's expected and those who don't will be thought less of, regardless of their ability.

So I guess the points I'm trying to make are: adherence to rules that are in constant flux anyway, does not necessarily make you a good communicator (although it will help depending on the social situation). Using swear word does not necessarily make you a bad communicator (depending on the social situtation). Language is ever changing and being too bothered about it doing so is ultimately pointless. I like swearing (dependent on the social situtation).

[blueshift]

Oct 5, 2010 11:57:16 GMT Cullen said:

You know what I find offensive? That people can place more emphasis on how something is said rather than what is being said. I review technical specifications in my job as do other team leaders. I know of several who will point out all the spelling and grammar mistakes in document but not comment on the solution at all (not even to say there's nothing wrong with it). Then the software gets delivered to the client and it doesn't work (I was going to say it's a bag of shite, hah). But at least the document read well!

In my experience that is usually because the person checking it has absolutely no clue what it is about but still wants to show they are inputting somehow.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Thinking about it some more, I don't have a problem with people using sexual swear words in a sexual context. I just find it distasteful (and, to be honest, rather ridiculous, no matter how often I hear it done) when they are used in a sentence that has nothing to do with sex, as if somehow introducing a sex word adds greater emphasis.

Why is "Have sex off?" used instead of "Get lost?" Why is "He's a vagina" used rather than "He's an idiot/scoundrel"? What is it about sex that makes people want to use sex-words in non-sex sentences? There's nothing particularly strong or extreme about the subject of sex, compared to lots of other more serious subjects relating to matters of life and death. So what is it about sex words? I've never understood it.

Is it all Chaucer's fault? (Though as I recall, he used the words in a literal sexual meaning - not that I've read much of his work. His stories did involve a lot of crude bodily functions, so it made sense to use words to match.)

Off-topic: Poor spelling/grammar does give a poor impression of professionalism. Even though it's far more important that a product actually works, you can't ignore the fact that many customers will be put off by poor English. I work for the government, and if we put out material that has spelling and grammar mistakes it decreases the confidence of many readers in our competence to do the rest of our job. Fact of life. We even get politicians complaining to us if we send them confidential never-to-be-published advice written in poor English.

Fortunately for me, I'm an obsessive compulsive when it comes to spelling and grammar and quite good at spotting mistakes. Of course John's right, that if what you're saying is wrong it makes no difference whether you say it well or not. But if what you're saying is right, saying it well means you're more likely to be trusted - and if you're not trusted, there's no benefit in being right.

Martin

[Deleted]

Certain words have lost their original meaning over the years. The word 'bastard' was originally used to describe a kings son born out of wedlock and therefore the child had no right to the throne. It is now used as a very common swear word but it is considered more milder a word than some of the notorious four-letter words. Another interesting point is the origin of the word 'f**k'. Apparently, that is an acronym for 'Fornication Under Consent of the King' which is an apt description for the word as it stands today. Although the word 'gay' isn't considered a swear word it is considered a derogatory one and once it was used to describe happiness but now it is used to describe homosexuality.

The English language has been twisted over the years to something that our ancestors wouldn't recognise at all.

[legios]

Oct 5, 2010 17:29:05 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

T
Why is "Have sex off?" used instead of "Get lost?" Why is "He's a vagina" used rather than "He's an idiot/scoundrel"? What is it about sex that makes people want to use sex-words in non-sex sentences? There's nothing particularly strong or extreme about the subject of sex, compared to lots of other more serious subjects relating to matters of life and death. So what is it about sex words? I've never understood it.

Probably the post-victorian aversion to discussion of intercourse in Anglo-Saxon society. Once sexual congress became a matter that was considered too disgusting to mention in polite company phrases and words related to it may have come to carry that same taboo nature. With swearing being in essence a transgressive act then it is possible that the choice of words to use in that context began to migrate in the direction of this forbidden topic.

It is just my theory though.

Karl

[Deleted]

As I've already mentioned, swearing is only really acceptable to me if it is used humorously and the Conkers Bad Fur Day game is a prime example.

[Gav]

What the ham and eggs are you all talking about? Swearing is marvelous. Look:

FISHSTICKS!

[Deleted]

This video is currently doing the rounds on Facebook.


The question is - is it trying to get across a serious message about hatred for same sex relationships or is it just an excuse for lots of swearing?

[Gav]

I guess it's just using taboo language to broach a largely taboo subject. It's an easy way to garner interest while steeping yourself deep in a left-wing kinda stance. That said, I can see some dismissing their argument due to the language being used, but I personally had no problem with it.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Oct 13, 2010 19:10:09 GMT Gav said:

That said, I can see some dismissing their argument due to the language being used

Well, yeah - to me, it's like someone trying to get me to take what they're saying seriously when they're letting off a fart between every few words, or are sticking up two fingers to me whilst saying it. I gave up listening after about ten seconds.

Martin

[Deleted]

What offended me most about that video I posted was that there were one or two kids using the f word. That brings me onto the subject of kids swearing. Do you find kids swearing more offensive than adults swearing or are they just as bad as each other?

[Gav]

I don't know if it's being from Glasgow, where some (not all) areas have integrated swearing into everyday language to an extent that most folks don't even know they're doing it; but I've no real problem with adults swearing at all. Children are a different matter, because to me most swear words stem from sexual matters and I don't think that kind of thing should be anywhere near a child's sphere.

[The Doctor]

Yeah, Glasgow has swearing built into the way a lot of folk speak!

-Ralph

[Gav]

I do it myself, which can be heard clearly on the podcast. Even in everyday life it's not uncommon for me to say something along the lines of:

I was in that shop...what do you call it....that....fucking....ummm....HMV....

A lot of folks here do that, use them as a pause; a break in the conversation or sentence. It's weird but ultimately a natural thing for me. Maybe that's why swearing doesn't bother me. I must have a limited volcabulary or a lack of patience/education I suppose.

[legios]

Oct 14, 2010 9:47:46 GMT Gav said:

I

A lot of folks here do that, use them as a pause; a break in the conversation or sentence. It's weird but ultimately a natural thing for me.

Living in Falkirk I encounter that a bit. The F-word has become something that people just put in every four or five words as a kind of spoken punctuation mark. It doesn't seem to be intended offensively, it is just a part of their way speech around here is sometimes constructed.

It is and odd thing that I have heard developing over the last couple of decades - an interesting lesson in how language mutates.

Karl

[Deleted]

People who are ten or so years younger than me use the f-word regularly when speaking but I've found that people my own age only use it when they feel it is necessary. I'm guessing its the way we've been brought up and it works in a similar way as 'text speak' where people younger than me say 'lol' and other such words whereas I and over people my age try to steer clear of such words.

[Stomski]

Oct 14, 2010 9:47:46 GMT Gav said:

I was in that shop...what do you call it....that....fucking....ummm....HMV....

A lot of folks here do that, use them as a pause; a break in the conversation or sentence. It's weird but ultimately a natural thing for me. Maybe that's why swearing doesn't bother me. I must have a limited volcabulary or a lack of patience/education I suppose.

Well in this case you seem to be venting your frustration about not being able to think of the shop name, so lack of patience would be the cause of your frustration, are you so frustrated that you need to swear though? Does the word use reflect your true state of mind or are you using it away from its definition?

[The Doctor]

I do sometimes say a toy is "shit" on this board but I don't think of it as swearing. Like Gav I view it as common parlance and ok in that context.

-Ralph

[Gav]

Oct 15, 2010 13:51:17 GMT Stomski said:

Oct 14, 2010 9:47:46 GMT Gav said:

I was in that shop...what do you call it....that....fucking....ummm....HMV....

A lot of folks here do that, use them as a pause; a break in the conversation or sentence. It's weird but ultimately a natural thing for me. Maybe that's why swearing doesn't bother me. I must have a limited volcabulary or a lack of patience/education I suppose.

Well in this case you seem to be venting your frustration about not being able to think of the shop name, so lack of patience would be the cause of your frustration, are you so frustrated that you need to swear though? Does the word use reflect your true state of mind or are you using it away from its definition?

The thing is, it's not an expression of annoyance or frustration as such - it's more like a verbal punctuation mark which is common in (some) of Glasgow. There's no malice or anger in it - there's no intention to accentuate any meaning or shock anyone. It's just something that's evolved in our wee lexicon that allows us to interact with our peers/colleagues in a unique way. I usually use it when I can't think of a word, and use it as a placeholder while my brain scans for the right word.

"I was trying to fix the dishwasher, and looked online that I needed a new........fuckin'.....washer"

It might sound completely alien to you, but it's a common practice up here. Again, don't expect it to be easily understandable to those who have a stricter stance against such abhorrent abuse of the language.