Post by Toph on Dec 11, 2012 23:00:44 GMT
I love dinosaurs, even more than I love transformers (Especially since all we have now is Primeverse and movies).
So naturally, my favorite TF group since 1984 have been the Dinobots.
And thanks to Nick, I now have every single toy that's ever been released under the "Dinobot" banner. (Not counting fringe dinobots that aren't officially listed as dinobots, like Pretender Grimlock, SG Grimlock)
So, you'd think I'd be all over the FoC Dinobots, right?
Wrong. Turn out from the moment I saw them, they disguisted me. I can't stand them, and feel like they're abominations to the animals they're based on.
Originally, I thought it was the FoC asthetics. I don't like the WfC/FoC asthetics... but I've never been so completely repulsed by any of them before. What I don't like, I usually just ignore, and hope never to see it again. Now since really getting worked up over.
Then I thought it was the anatomy. Thought I nailed it on that.
I mean, these guys are bad. Baaaad. So bad it's obvious the designers know virtually NOTHING about dinosaurs, and did absolutely no research. Some, like Grimlock and Sludge are bad enough to make me wonder if they every even seen a dinosaur, and made them based on vague descriptions. And on top of that they're so universally praised and anyone with a differing opinion who'd prefer (relatively) anatomically accurate dinosaurs are basically told to shut up and be happy.
Bingo. Nailed it.
And anytime I argue against the FoCs, saying that anatomically accurate dinobots would not only look better, but be cooler, I'm told that I'm being rediculous, and accuracy doesn't matter.
Seriously, people come into my Deviant Art and Fur Affinity art pages for my dinobots (Where I put my money where my mouth is) and tell me things like this.
So, this is how I break this down:
The key features for Clade and Species, Tyrannosaurus Rex.
imgc.allpostersimages.com/ima...x-skeleton.jpg
A Tyrannosaur is a medium to large theropod, with a medium to bulky build. It's head has grown so large, that it's arms have practically receded into it's body.
On top of that, it's skull has a very distinguished appearance and shape. Through out time, all tyrannosaurids share many of the same facial features as their best known cousin, T. Rex.
Two reconstructions for comparison and baseline. The first is a fairly accurate depiction. The second is less accurate, but the most famous depiction, from Jurassic Park:
25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8...n3bo1_1280.jpg
images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...c-park1-1-.jpg
So, in all three, you can easily see the shape and huge scale of the head, and in the skeleton, you can see how impossibly tiny it's arms are.
Now, coming to Fall of Cybertron's dipiction:
3.bp.blogspot.com/-myL5LD1-my...obot-dlc-2.jpg
assets.sbnation.com/assets/10...pt_Art_800.jpg
I won't even address that ridiculous and inexcusable upright stance from the first image. It shouldn't exist, it's beneath contempt.
But otherwise, where are the identifying features? What makes this a Tyrannosaurus Rex, and not some generic make believe theropod?
Legs and feet that are ridiculously oversized (one foot alone is as large as his entire torso), huge arms that are oversized for most theropods (I said previously t. rex is always portrayed with arms that are too large, but this is this isn't even trying). And a head that is at least two sizes two small.
The shape maaaaybe kiiiiinda looks a little like a tyrannosaurid, if you squint at it funny, so I won't bitch about that. I don't like it at all, but I'll leave it alone.
Now, here's what I feel does well. Here's IDW's pre-AHM take on the same transformer/animal/design combo.
First, I appologize, this is the best image I could find, I thought there would have been some decent promotional material as with FoC, but there isn't:
www.expertcomics.com/Blog/wp-...t_grimlock.jpg
This is what I'm talking about as a reasonably anatomically realistic dinosaur.
He has a very large head, that is shaped very much like the animal it represents. Arms are oversized, but still within reason, and legs and feat are still within proportion. Not to mention feet and "hands" have the appropriate number of toes and fingers (That's just a bonus)
IMO, the latter looks significantly cooler than the former. It looks more impressive, and it shows that the designer actually took the time to study the subject matter.
I'm leaving robot modes out of this, as FoC is Prime continuity and IDW is G1. So they represent two different characters, and such personal taste over robot mode is much more subjective.
But incase you're curious, here's IDW's robot mode:
media.comicvine.com/uploads/1...dinobots_2.jpg
Still G1, still very much (If not more so) identifiable Grimlock.
That's the crux of my argument. And I still feel I'm largely correct that coolness, and accuracy are not mutually exclusive.
After all, BWX/Cybertron Megatron was an amazing toy. The most anatamically accurate toy to date, that still looks completely badass, and was obvious who he was intended to represent, unquestionably.
And it's obviously dated as they are, even the original diaclone designs indicated the deigners actually did their research. Snarl, Slag, Sluge, and Swoop may have been largely unchanged from their dino's pop-culture representations, but Grimlock wasn't.
The late seventies was a revolutionary time for dinosaurs. Most of what we believe about dinosaurs today, had their roots in the late seventies. That, after all was when they began to realize they didn't drag their tails. That was when they began to suspect they were warm blooded animals, that were fast and active.
Grimlock actually bares some of these early signs, too. I've come to believe his designer actually was aware of this dinosaur revolution, and incorporated the big feature into his design. He leans forward far more than most depictions of theropods of that time, and when you tip him forward with his tail off the ground, he looks 100% completely natural like this.
But... then in the past, I've overlooked bad depictions of dinosaurs fairly easily. I may not like them, but they don't fill me with disgust the way the FoC Dinobots, and MP Grimlock does (It's hardly a "masterpiece" when they screw up the beast mode sooooo badly.
I mean, BW Dinobot is a terrible dinosaur. One of the worst. But I've rarly ever complained about him in any meaningful way.
So... what gives...? Why do these bother me so much?
I think I finally, genuinely nailed it.
It's Vehicles vs Beasts.
There's a large section of the fandom who feels vehicle modes have to be model accurate, or at least as reasonably close as possible, and nothing less will do. This section of the fandom is widely acceptid, or at least tolorated. Fans who feel like this for beasts, are usually dumped on.
When TF is dominated by beasts, as BW... a bad vehicle mode sticks out like a sore thumb. It's harder to over look. Meanwhile, a bad beast, like Dinobot is relatively easy to ignore.
And now we're in the exact opposite situation.
Vehicles are so prominant, than beast modes are even more rare than vehicles were during the beast era.
So in this situation, a bad beast really sticks out.
On top of that, we've now got something being called a Tyrannosaurus Rex that ignores the fundamental anatomy that makes it visually a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
That's like releasing an update of Razorclaw without a mane.
Really? It's a lion? Why? How can you tell it's a lion, and not a tiger, or a cougar?
So, I think it's basically that. Bad beasts really stick out at this point in the franchise.
Thoughts? Opinions? Rebuttles on anything I said? Am I wrong for thinking the Dinobots deserve better than they get in FoC?
So naturally, my favorite TF group since 1984 have been the Dinobots.
And thanks to Nick, I now have every single toy that's ever been released under the "Dinobot" banner. (Not counting fringe dinobots that aren't officially listed as dinobots, like Pretender Grimlock, SG Grimlock)
So, you'd think I'd be all over the FoC Dinobots, right?
Wrong. Turn out from the moment I saw them, they disguisted me. I can't stand them, and feel like they're abominations to the animals they're based on.
Originally, I thought it was the FoC asthetics. I don't like the WfC/FoC asthetics... but I've never been so completely repulsed by any of them before. What I don't like, I usually just ignore, and hope never to see it again. Now since really getting worked up over.
Then I thought it was the anatomy. Thought I nailed it on that.
I mean, these guys are bad. Baaaad. So bad it's obvious the designers know virtually NOTHING about dinosaurs, and did absolutely no research. Some, like Grimlock and Sludge are bad enough to make me wonder if they every even seen a dinosaur, and made them based on vague descriptions. And on top of that they're so universally praised and anyone with a differing opinion who'd prefer (relatively) anatomically accurate dinosaurs are basically told to shut up and be happy.
Bingo. Nailed it.
And anytime I argue against the FoCs, saying that anatomically accurate dinobots would not only look better, but be cooler, I'm told that I'm being rediculous, and accuracy doesn't matter.
Seriously, people come into my Deviant Art and Fur Affinity art pages for my dinobots (Where I put my money where my mouth is) and tell me things like this.
So, this is how I break this down:
The key features for Clade and Species, Tyrannosaurus Rex.
imgc.allpostersimages.com/ima...x-skeleton.jpg
A Tyrannosaur is a medium to large theropod, with a medium to bulky build. It's head has grown so large, that it's arms have practically receded into it's body.
On top of that, it's skull has a very distinguished appearance and shape. Through out time, all tyrannosaurids share many of the same facial features as their best known cousin, T. Rex.
Two reconstructions for comparison and baseline. The first is a fairly accurate depiction. The second is less accurate, but the most famous depiction, from Jurassic Park:
25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8...n3bo1_1280.jpg
images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...c-park1-1-.jpg
So, in all three, you can easily see the shape and huge scale of the head, and in the skeleton, you can see how impossibly tiny it's arms are.
Now, coming to Fall of Cybertron's dipiction:
3.bp.blogspot.com/-myL5LD1-my...obot-dlc-2.jpg
assets.sbnation.com/assets/10...pt_Art_800.jpg
I won't even address that ridiculous and inexcusable upright stance from the first image. It shouldn't exist, it's beneath contempt.
But otherwise, where are the identifying features? What makes this a Tyrannosaurus Rex, and not some generic make believe theropod?
Legs and feet that are ridiculously oversized (one foot alone is as large as his entire torso), huge arms that are oversized for most theropods (I said previously t. rex is always portrayed with arms that are too large, but this is this isn't even trying). And a head that is at least two sizes two small.
The shape maaaaybe kiiiiinda looks a little like a tyrannosaurid, if you squint at it funny, so I won't bitch about that. I don't like it at all, but I'll leave it alone.
Now, here's what I feel does well. Here's IDW's pre-AHM take on the same transformer/animal/design combo.
First, I appologize, this is the best image I could find, I thought there would have been some decent promotional material as with FoC, but there isn't:
www.expertcomics.com/Blog/wp-...t_grimlock.jpg
This is what I'm talking about as a reasonably anatomically realistic dinosaur.
He has a very large head, that is shaped very much like the animal it represents. Arms are oversized, but still within reason, and legs and feat are still within proportion. Not to mention feet and "hands" have the appropriate number of toes and fingers (That's just a bonus)
IMO, the latter looks significantly cooler than the former. It looks more impressive, and it shows that the designer actually took the time to study the subject matter.
I'm leaving robot modes out of this, as FoC is Prime continuity and IDW is G1. So they represent two different characters, and such personal taste over robot mode is much more subjective.
But incase you're curious, here's IDW's robot mode:
media.comicvine.com/uploads/1...dinobots_2.jpg
Still G1, still very much (If not more so) identifiable Grimlock.
That's the crux of my argument. And I still feel I'm largely correct that coolness, and accuracy are not mutually exclusive.
After all, BWX/Cybertron Megatron was an amazing toy. The most anatamically accurate toy to date, that still looks completely badass, and was obvious who he was intended to represent, unquestionably.
And it's obviously dated as they are, even the original diaclone designs indicated the deigners actually did their research. Snarl, Slag, Sluge, and Swoop may have been largely unchanged from their dino's pop-culture representations, but Grimlock wasn't.
The late seventies was a revolutionary time for dinosaurs. Most of what we believe about dinosaurs today, had their roots in the late seventies. That, after all was when they began to realize they didn't drag their tails. That was when they began to suspect they were warm blooded animals, that were fast and active.
Grimlock actually bares some of these early signs, too. I've come to believe his designer actually was aware of this dinosaur revolution, and incorporated the big feature into his design. He leans forward far more than most depictions of theropods of that time, and when you tip him forward with his tail off the ground, he looks 100% completely natural like this.
But... then in the past, I've overlooked bad depictions of dinosaurs fairly easily. I may not like them, but they don't fill me with disgust the way the FoC Dinobots, and MP Grimlock does (It's hardly a "masterpiece" when they screw up the beast mode sooooo badly.
I mean, BW Dinobot is a terrible dinosaur. One of the worst. But I've rarly ever complained about him in any meaningful way.
So... what gives...? Why do these bother me so much?
I think I finally, genuinely nailed it.
It's Vehicles vs Beasts.
There's a large section of the fandom who feels vehicle modes have to be model accurate, or at least as reasonably close as possible, and nothing less will do. This section of the fandom is widely acceptid, or at least tolorated. Fans who feel like this for beasts, are usually dumped on.
When TF is dominated by beasts, as BW... a bad vehicle mode sticks out like a sore thumb. It's harder to over look. Meanwhile, a bad beast, like Dinobot is relatively easy to ignore.
And now we're in the exact opposite situation.
Vehicles are so prominant, than beast modes are even more rare than vehicles were during the beast era.
So in this situation, a bad beast really sticks out.
On top of that, we've now got something being called a Tyrannosaurus Rex that ignores the fundamental anatomy that makes it visually a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
That's like releasing an update of Razorclaw without a mane.
Really? It's a lion? Why? How can you tell it's a lion, and not a tiger, or a cougar?
So, I think it's basically that. Bad beasts really stick out at this point in the franchise.
Thoughts? Opinions? Rebuttles on anything I said? Am I wrong for thinking the Dinobots deserve better than they get in FoC?
