The economy of Transformers

[Toph]

Eeeeevryone is well aware of the various ways Hasbro and Takara have both been trying to cut back on costs.
From shrinking down the toys and using cheaper materials, to over-simplifying the engineering, and cutting back on paint apps. All with varying degrees of success (Or failure in my opinion.)

But something they have not done, and when this struck me it really boggles me. Why haven't they tried returning to the Beast Era style of engineering?

It's a much simpler form of engineering and design, focusing on balljoints instead of ratchet joints. Requires fewer moving parts to create, in many cases, more complex forms of transformation.

Example:
I picked up Generations FoC Grimlock the other day. The toy suffers greatly from Hasbro's cost cutting design techniques. Most notably in his "Tyrannosaur" mode (I put that in quotations because that abomination should never be called a dinosaur), which has the wonkiest proportions, and is massively hollow.
The part most people call out is the tail, and that is ruined simply because of Hasbro's cheapness in his transformation scheme.

The original toy, the feet were made up from the base of the dinosaur tail. Really the animal's hips, giving him nice proportions in both modes; thick at the hips, and thin at the tail. And in robot, narrow at the knees, and wide feet.

FoC Grimock transforms fundamentally different, and shares very little from the design he homages. His back is the underside of the animal. And to transform into beast, his lower legs just fold up like shells, covering the upper legs and crotch. This gives him those really weird proportions in both modes, and makes him look only half complete. They couldn't make his feet broad in robot, because that would screw up the beast even worse.
Alternately, they couldn't make where it "attaches" to the dino's hips thick, because that would screw up the robot mode worse than it is.

However, I was really looking at it this afternoon, and the way the hip and knee joints are designed... there's really no reason on earth that they couldn't have been ball joints.
Had they made them ball joints, that would have cut several pieces out of the design process, requiring fewer tools to be cut, and less plastic used.
it also would have potentially allowed for there to be a swivel designed into the waist giving him both an additional point of articulation, as well as allowing the hips to swivel backwards, and let the robot legs transform into the dinosaur take almost exactly the same way as the original toy. The result would have created a more complete looking and proportional dinosaur mode, and a more proportional robot mode.

Once I realized this, there are tons of transformers that could benefit from this more simplified style of engineering.

But then I also look at Lazerback, which relies heavily on BW style engineering and.... oh well.

[Bogatan]

I slightly disagree with calling the engineering simplified. I know what you mean, the end results are less jointed, articulated etc, but given the other cost cutting activities I feel the engineering has had to be stepped up to keep the new stuff anywhere near the the toys produced 2 years ago.

As for your main point yeah I wouldn't see a return to BW ball joints as a backwards step.

Though the simplicity of BW toys was I think in part due to the best forms already sharing certain humanoid forms. Cheetor was basically standing the cheetah upright and changing the head which is a lot less complex than converting a car to robot. I know Machine Wars used the same technology quite well but even by BMs the engineering had gotten more complex. But given that the current line does have so many animal Transformers it would have been a good time to try.

I don't know what the difference is with the current plastic, but I do wonder if it would handle the tension of ball joints especially on larger figures.

[Toph]

Well, to be clear for others (I think you understood by the way you speak in your post), by calling the Beast Era engineering simplified, I do mean that it's simplified in that it requires fewer moving/molded parts for a similar range of motion to the ratchet and hinge system they use now.
The way Grimlock's hips are, requires six separate pieces, plus two pins (Maybe even more, given I don't know what's inside the crotch piece. And get your minds out of the gutters). Had they used ball joints, which would have given him an identical range of movement given the way he's designed, would have cut that down to four, or even three, and required no pins.
Note, this is counting both legs, for both examples.

[The Doctor]

I had stopped collecting Transformers before the current simpler cheaper-looking and feeling TF's started coming out so I can't say I was ever hugely bothered by the current style as I never bought them. All I can comment on is that from seeing them on shelves and in hand when having a shot of other folks I see nothing to make me come back to the line. They just look and feel like Poundland toys to me, alas!

But as I said, I haven't spent money on them so I can't get too annoyed abut it all. Merely slightly sad from the sidelines.

-Ralph

[The Doctor]

I've seen some comparison shots with MP Prowl and his 80's original. It looks horribly cheap and unpainted by comparison. A question for those who have him: does he have any stickers? He seems to have hardly any detail compared to the original but is that because reviewers aren't applying stickers? I presume he comes with one.

The back of the legs look horribly empty, like current mainstream cheap crap Transformers. That can't be right, surely? Not at the MP price-point?

-Ralph

[duffism1981]

Mine arrived an hour ago, and a very nice figure he is too. Even better is that he was marked as a gift, so got past the evil forces of customs.

There aren't any stickers in the box, so his details are all ready applied.

But i do see where you are coming from with the legs. I was baffled by the transformation of them thinking I had done it wrong, as they looked so empty and messy. I had them right all along, but the back of the legs shall be facing the back of the shelf anyway.

[The Doctor]

It saddens me that modern Transformers don't have the detail or parts that they used to when a fifth of the price.

-Ralph

[kayevcee]

That is a bit of a shame.

I painted the inside of MP10's trailer because I couldn't bear to look at it all in grey. I'm still thinking about getting the reprolabels enhancement set. The lack of surface details on a lot of the new MPs can't even be blamed on the "Wal-mart Effect" because they're intended solely for a Japanese collector audience that's prepared to pay extra for more paint and greebly bits.

-Nick

[Shockprowl]

Glad you like him Hippp! But yes he is deffo a front facer in robot mode. And no stickers is a disapointment. Repolabels will do us proud though in due course I'm sure, 'cos he does need them.

Doc', I completely understand what you're saying and totally agree. It is a shame that everything is taking a turn for the 'cheap'. Cutting corners, saving pennies, yet prices go up and up. I think it's the way the world is and it's not going to improve. It is a sad state of things! But, where Prowl and other MPs lack finishing touches, he/they are fantastic in other general styling and articulation ways. I wish things were different. I wish we got rubber tyres and stickers and nicer plastic (and even a bit of die-cast!), but it isn't going to happen. Not any more.

[The Doctor]

Hence why I stopped buying them.

A high-end premium priced collector's item should not need additional purchases (reprolabels, 3rd party add-ons) etc just to bring them up to minimum standard.

-Ralph

[duffism1981]

I played about with Prowl a bit more last night, and there is something really cheap and incomplete about the legs. They are so hollow and gappy in places, that it really feels like I have missed some step, or something is to lock in where there is no where to lock in.

His shoulders do feel as if there should be some details there. The original toys has some sheriff type sticker and a sergeant rank there, but this Prowl really feels like there should be something there, but is missing.

But I do love the head sculpt on this guy, so I am very happy with him from the waist up and the car mode is fantastic. It is just the legs assembly that looks poor, but it does seem that is more designed for articulation and posing.

Considering I only paid £44 for him when others have paid a lot more, plus I avoided customs, I suppose I can't really complain.

Also I thought if parcels were marked as gifts they didn't get checked by customs, but when I looked it up last night I saw the value has to be under £36 to get past. The seller has this guy valued at $15 on the front packaging, so that explains how Mr Jii Dee, Mr BTTE Phil and I all avoided customs when he arrived yesterday.

[Shockprowl]

Oct 20, 2013 10:37:31 GMT The Doctor said:

Hence why I stopped buying them.

A high-end premium priced collector's item should not need additional purchases (reprolabels, 3rd party add-ons) etc just to bring them up to minimum standard.

-Ralph

I agree. It is galling. Is this move towards 'the cheap' just a Transformers problem? Do other high-end collector's items suffer? If it is just TFs, why? And what can we do about it?

[kayevcee]

It's certainly not just TFs. Costs are going up and wages for most people aren't, so declining quality of products is the only solution. It's that or keep the quality up and price a lot of reliable customers out of the market. Or just have fewer releases, like 3 or 4 MP figures a year instead of... how many are coming in the next 12 months? 5 or more, not counting re-releases like the Chinese Starscream?

-Nick

[Bogatan]

Yup even lego has reduced the amount of plastic in its bricks.

The new MPs are based on the animation models so are simpler and more solid blocks of colour so I can see why that detail wasn't added. Though no reason not to have sticker sheets as it appears they are doing with G2 Sideswipe for those who want it.

Rubber wheels I have to admit I'm not totally sold on. Yes they add a little heft and traction to the wheels when played with but are also prone to damage. At least on masterpieces I don't have any issues with the plastic and as for diecast I don't miss it at all paint chipping is almost impossible to avoid.

[legios]

Some lines are going very much in the opposite direction. Bandai's "Macross Frontier" is maintaining the same detail and paint applications but the rereleases from last year were more expensive than the originals from two-three years back.

Karl

[The Doctor]

I would have been less bothered by the increasing cheapness of Transformers if they hadn't co-incided with big price hikes. A company that charges more for less will lose my business. I just felt I wasn't getting my money's worth anymore. So Transformers went from a monthly purchase to a very occasional one. At least with Lego, if I spend (for example) £20 I generally feel I get better value for money. £20 won't even get me a well made Transformer with decent plastic quality and paint apps anymore. Like many people I have stagnant wages, higher cost of living and more Real Life financial commitments of late so when I do spend money on toys I don't want to feel like I've wasted it on crap.

No criticism of folk buying current Transformers intended.

-Ralph

[duffism1981]

I only buy them when they are about half price these days. Prowl was an exception seeing the price I got him for, and the costs the previous masterpiece figures have went up in price.

[Bogatan]

Oct 20, 2013 16:12:50 GMT The Doctor said:

I would have been less bothered by the increasing cheapness of Transformers if they hadn't co-incided with big price hikes. A company that charges more for less will lose my business. I just felt I wasn't getting my money's worth anymore. So Transformers went from a monthly purchase to a very occasional one. At least with Lego, if I spend (for example) £20 I generally feel I get better value for money. £20 won't even get me a well made Transformer with decent plastic quality and paint apps anymore. Like many people I have stagnant wages, higher cost of living and more Real Life financial commitments of late so when I do spend money on toys I don't want to feel like I've wasted it on crap.

No criticism of folk buying current Transformers intended.

-Ralph

No I get it I have never really bought full price retail Transformers in the UK. Unless it was something that wasnt going to hang around for long or I felt was worth it. As far back as 1996 and the launch of Beast Wars I've done most of my yearly Transformers shopping while on holiday in the States because it was way cheaper. Just the other week I came across a list of Tranformers I bought it 97 while in Canada, it was most of my birthday and pocket money for the year.

[The Doctor]

Oct 20, 2013 16:30:38 GMT duffism1981 said:

I only buy them when they are about half price these days. Prowl was an exception seeing the price I got him for, and the costs the previous masterpiece figures have went up in price.

Indeed!

It is a shame how MP prices have become silly money at UK. Remember when we blanched a bit at Grimlock and Rodimus being £60? We now have an era of Primes for £100 and Soundwaves at £120. Yes, they have loads more bits bundled in, but the result has been the entry level price-point for that range has quietly shot up by a hefty margin, putting them out of reach of more casual fans and probably many kids too. A Grimlock at £60 I could manage but Soundwave at double the price was way out of my pay packet.

-ralph

[The Doctor]

Posts moved from MP Prowl discussion thread.

-Ralph

[Bogatan]

Prime at £100 I was okay with, not thrilled, but not surprised. Think if itwas sold anywhere else it would probably have sold at £80-90.
Soundwave at £120, it's fantastic, but shouldn't have been more than Prime. The tapes being smaller but way more complexed than the trailer should have about balanced out in my mind. MAybe a little more but should have been £100 tops.
Acid Storm at £70 hmmm. The Argos Skywarps started briefly at £60 quite a while ago and the moulds about the same size as Grimlock and Rodimus so I guess its about right.

TRU always over price so if its a case of TRU being the only ones who would take them I can accept the prices as its still a much better option than importing. If its Hasbro only offering them to TRU to keep a competitive alternative to Walmart and Amazon then I am annoyed with Hasbro for making me pay more.

[Toph]

I was just thinking about this last night, though not with MPs, but the cyberverse compared to mainline.
Was a time when the price doubled for a larger scale, you felt like it was worth it.
Now cyberverse does not equal up to deluxes or voyagers. You just don't get your money worth with them.
Two cyb commanders cost the same as one voyager. But even as cheap as voyagers have become, I feel like i get more out of one than i do two cyb commanders. Don't get me started on the legion, and hasbro's shit decision to upscale them for voyagers.

[Jim]

I haven't heard of paint coming off, but lots of reports of sloppy paint jobs on Hasbro MP Soundwaves - I seem to have got off lightly in this regard; there are a couple of places where the paint goes out of the line but it's not too bad. I've heard horror stories about the silver paint on the face.

It's sad that MPs should carry this risk - at least with standard releases you can see what you're getting when you buy in-person. Yesterday I rejected two Rippersnappers at John Lewis for poor paint apps.

-Jim

[The Doctor]

A premium line £120 toy should not have sloppy paint apps. I hope folk get a decent copy!

-Ralph

[kayevcee]

It means whoever painted it wasn't given enough time to do it properly. They had to work faster than they were capable. When I think about that it puts me off buying one altogether.

-Nick

[Bogatan]

Not wanting to cover the same ground as last year and the chinese labour issues because clearly they aren't very pleasant, but I personally don't believe there has been a dip in QC efforts by Hasbro or that they are any worse then other companies.

Theres always been mistakes but for any time it's an employee not given enough time, there's also an employee who is under the weather or at the end of a shift and just isn't paying as much attention as they would at the start of the shift. At least based on the experience of every job I've had.

As for the issues themselves adult fans have learnt to bitch and moan about any tiny issue that they wouldn't even have noticed when they were younger. And also things they wouldnt notice if some one else on the internet hadn't decided they didn't think some paint app was exactly how they wanted.

And then the more practical issue that with so many people buying online now it's not as easy as taking back to the store and picking up a replacement. I did plenty of times growing up, but for things that I couldn't justify the hassle and cost of returning an item by post. Or worse because items have already sold out so replacements aren't an option. I think that frustrates people which causes an over reaction on certain messageboards.

[kayevcee]

This is also true.

-Nick

[The Doctor]

Indeed. I am someone who stopped buying though as he was fed up with the poor quality crap that came down the pike from 2011ish. Simpler smaller figures made from cheap plastic with sloppy paint. I voted with my wallet. Even my other half has looked at new Transformers on the shelf and remarked how cheap they look.

Where I think some annoyance comes from are corners of the internet where folk complain loudly of the above but keep buying them anyway even when they know they won't like them. This is entirely different from folk who are critical but like the figures anyway and get enjoyment from buying and paying with them.

-Ralph