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Post by The Doctor on Dec 31, 2013 10:17:02 GMT
Spinning out of the Windblade thread....
What are folk's opinions on fembots in Transformers stories? A daft idea? A good idea?
Please keep away from personal opinions on comic writers and authorial intents. That issue can be discussed in the Spotlight:Windblade thread. This thread is for discussing the concept of fembots in general story terms. Cheers.
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 31, 2013 10:41:41 GMT
female - adjective.
Of, pertaining to, or designating the sex which can bear offspring or produce eggs; in organisms which undergo sexual reproduction, designating, pertaining to, or producing gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes. Of a plant, flower, etc.: bearing pistils but lacking stamens; fruit-bearing.
The Marvel comics got it right, stating in both Budiansky and Furman stories that TFs were without gender - though this was obvious from the moment they established how they reproduce - by building new robots and programming them with the Creation Matrix. (And 'Prime's Rib' made it clear that Arcee was a genderless robot built to appear female to humans, who wrongly took all the other TFs to be male.)
For me though, good TF stories need lots of humans in them, and there should be plenty of females as well as males. It was a shame that all the Headmasters, Targetmasters and Powermasters except the Japanese-exclusive Minerva and Overlord were assigned male partners, and that all the humanoid Pretenders had male likenesses (well, except for Alice in 'Revenge of the Fallen'). But at least Tracks had a female fake driver in one issue.
Yes, it's a shame the English language has no pronoun for sentient genderless beings. I think out of "he", "she" and "it", "he" was as good a choice as any.
If the Ark had crashed in a country where "it" doesn't exist and all nouns are either masculine or feminine, it wouldn't be a problem. "Le robot" is masculine in French, so the word for "it" would be the same as the word for "he" when describing robots in that language.
Off-topic: The animated movie has much to answer for. It is equally misleading to portray Transformers as "young" or "old". They are fully intellectually developed the moment they are Matrixed, and do not age physically, as all body parts, even the brain circuits, can be replaced when worn out. The compromises made when humans create characters for humans which are supposed to be robots not built by humans!
Martin
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Dec 31, 2013 10:41:47 GMT
Robots that look (or even behave) female (or male) as a cultural sop to the civilisations they are living amongst - yes.
Robots that are female (or male) - nonsense. Maybe there would be some other intraspecies attribute that sub-divides them but it isn't going to be physical gender in the way we apply it to ourselves since in humans that is rooted (in various ways) in our biological natures through mental embodiment within a sexually reproducing biological construct.
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Post by blueshift on Dec 31, 2013 16:34:18 GMT
Spinning out of the Windblade thread.... What are folk's opinions on fembots in Transformers stories? A daft idea? A good idea? Please keep away from personal opinions on comic writers and authorial intents. That issue can be discussed in the Spotlight:Windblade thread. This thread is for discussing the concept of fembots in general story terms. Cheers. -Ralph It's as good an idea as having male characters, which, lets face it, all the TFs are. Yes I know in-universe they are 'genderless' but for all intents and purposes they are male. No-one is ever going to look at a picture of Megatron and scratch their heads and think "BOY I THINK SHES PROBABLY A GIRL". As long as the primary audience of Transformers is humans, they will have gender assigned to them as part of the external process of fiction. Yes they should definitely have 'female' characters in the same way that most TFs are 'male'. Transformers track record on this is pretty shameful; there is usually a token female whose personality is 'FEMALE' or 'CHARACTER X'S GIRLFRIEND' and they tend to look like a robot prostitute. It's pretty terrible. Gobots had it 100% right - just have some characters female, move on. It's different from /female/ characters who have robo-boobs falling in love and having robo-babies, that is in-universe gender. I have no opinion either way on that. |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Dec 31, 2013 16:59:20 GMT
As far as I'm aware no Transformer is 'male' beyond the limits of the language we use to talk about them being incapable of discussing gender-neutral persons due to it arising in a species that views gender as one of its defining identity traits. I totally fail to see how that means Transformers are male by default.
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Post by blueshift on Dec 31, 2013 17:12:22 GMT
As far as I'm aware no Transformer is 'male' beyond the limits of the language we use to talk about them being incapable of discussing gender-neutral persons due to it arising in a species that views gender as one of its defining identity traits. I totally fail to see how that means Transformers are male by default. The entire design of them is male. Big broad shoulders, masculine features etc. While YES in-universe they are genderless robots, functionally to an audience they are male. If you show a picture of most of the TFs to a person on the street, there won't be any confusion as to whether say, Sideswipe is male or female or genderless> I think the exceptions to this are Shockwave and Whirl, because their designs really do evoke a much more weird, robotic, genderless look. If all Transformers looked like that, then you'd have a point. But they dont, because then people couldn't relate to them as an audience, hence they have functional gender. Just not literally in-universe. Something can be obviously male yet not male in-universe. |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 31, 2013 17:55:51 GMT
The entire design of them is male. Big broad shoulders, masculine features etc. I don't see it myself. As has been pointed out, there's nothing male about the chests of Prowl, Jazz, Bluestreak, Smokescreen and Overdrive, and I've never met a human male whose shoulders are seven times the width of his head. By your line of argument, all highly muscular animal species would be considered male. I'd like to see you tell a female gorilla she looks like a fella to her face. So if you don't consider her male by her physique, deep voice and homely facial features, why think of, say, Cosmos or Motormaster that way? Martin |
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Post by blueshift on Dec 31, 2013 18:13:50 GMT
The entire design of them is male. Big broad shoulders, masculine features etc. I don't see it myself. As has been pointed out, there's nothing male about the chests of Prowl, Jazz, Bluestreak, Smokescreen and Overdrive, and I've never met a human male whose shoulders are seven times the width of his head. By your line of argument, all highly muscular animal species would be considered male. I'd like to see you tell a female gorilla she looks like a fella to her face. So if you don't consider her male by her physique, deep voice and homely facial features, why think of, say, Cosmos or Motormaster that way? Martin Because Cosmos and Motormaster look like guys in armour, and a gorilla looks like a gorilla? |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 31, 2013 19:30:03 GMT
I don't see it myself. As has been pointed out, there's nothing male about the chests of Prowl, Jazz, Bluestreak, Smokescreen and Overdrive, and I've never met a human male whose shoulders are seven times the width of his head. By your line of argument, all highly muscular animal species would be considered male. I'd like to see you tell a female gorilla she looks like a fella to her face. So if you don't consider her male by her physique, deep voice and homely facial features, why think of, say, Cosmos or Motormaster that way? Martin Because Cosmos and Motormaster look like guys in armour, and a gorilla looks like a gorilla? And a woman wearing Cosmos armour would look more feminine how exactly? Martin |
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Post by blueshift on Dec 31, 2013 20:12:22 GMT
Because Cosmos and Motormaster look like guys in armour, and a gorilla looks like a gorilla? And a woman wearing Cosmos armour would look more feminine how exactly? Martin Well okay, Cosmos is one of the few Transformers who looks more like a neutral robot given he has a bucket for a head, though his presentation in the cartoon is resolutely male. Or rather, literally Peter Lorre. |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 31, 2013 21:04:36 GMT
Female (because of female Headmaster partner):  Male (because of male Headmaster partner):  Identical bodies except for colour scheme. Pre-Headmaster? Both without gender. And this thing on the right was no more male or female than Frenzy in the first live-action movie until the Decepticons decided to disguise it as a human female:  On another mission on another day, it might be disguised as a bloke. Martin |
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 1, 2014 11:23:09 GMT
Martin has won the thread!
-Ralph
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Post by blueshift on Jan 1, 2014 11:28:08 GMT
Martin has won the thread! -Ralph I agree with those examples, but those are really the exceptions. Also Classics Mirage. Those are few and far between. |
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Post by Kingoji on Jan 1, 2014 19:36:02 GMT
Yeah but  |
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Post by blueshift on Jan 1, 2014 19:39:00 GMT
Yeah but Two guys and a lady? |
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Post by Kingoji on Jan 1, 2014 19:45:35 GMT
What it was doing was not specific to gender, It was though. I mean, would the story have worked the same if it was about a Transformer who had been forcibly 'made male'? Yes. As long as there were a different pronoun in use to describe them. This is all very much a cosequence of the limitations of our language and nothing more. Can you imagine how insane these people would have gone if Arcee were always refered to as It instead of She? And yet the principal of it's use should be the very same. |
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Post by blueshift on Jan 1, 2014 20:08:32 GMT
It was though. I mean, would the story have worked the same if it was about a Transformer who had been forcibly 'made male'? Yes. As long as there were a different pronoun in use to describe them. This is all very much a cosequence of the limitations of our language and nothing more. Can you imagine how insane these people would have gone if Arcee were always refered to as It instead of She? And yet the principal of it's use should be the very same. Ah right, okay, I think again we are talking about two different things. In-universe, of course there is not robot gender. This is stated clearly. Prowl is not literally male as for a robot there is no such thing. HOWEVER in a cultural context, Prowl is obviously male to anyone reading it as he looks like a male and words such as 'he' are used to describe him. Noone is ever going to assume the G1 cast are female before they assume they are male. You are correct in saying that in-universe they are genderless however that is not how they are presented to us, the audience who are asked to emphasize with these characters. (If you wanted to present them as genderless within a cultural context, I guess you could make everyone look like boxy robots with no obvious features and call everyone 'it', but that's not how they did it). |
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Post by Kingoji on Jan 1, 2014 20:13:47 GMT
Yes, I understand your POV comlpletely. Hence my post in the other thread. However, you asked how the story would have worked if the gender had been switched, and the story would, yes. People's reactions, however, would have been vastly different.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 1, 2014 20:26:25 GMT
Three robots. Although Wheels is carrying an upper chasis job there...
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 2, 2014 14:36:53 GMT
It's all context for me. In Marvel, Sunbow and IDW the robots appear genderless. One of the main writers of two of those versions of Transformers (Furman) recently stated in his blog that that was the intent in those universes. I'm inclined to listen to a creator involved.
As for things like Beast Wars or Prime, they had clearly defined 'male' and 'female' robots in there from the start so that's fine.
With regards to the discussion, it may help if folk are specific about which version of Transformers they mean or if their argument encompasses ALL versions of the mythos.
-Ralph
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Post by Bogatan on Jan 2, 2014 15:18:38 GMT
I sort of agree with Matts position by default they are almost always portrayed male even if its just due to a lack of suitable words in the English language. But I have no real attachment to the idea, it just feels more comfortable than saying or reading "it". Looking at that picture I can just as easily see Wheejack and Perceptor as female or male or creatures under armour that obscures any gender trait. I don't agree that they are male designs, a male and female soldier in full combat uniform on patrol in Afghanistan do not look significantly different when seen in news reports. I don't think it would be any different with Transformers, after years of fighting theres not going to be a huge amount of difference.
But I'm I'm still stumped on what would make a Transforming robot female. Is it just robo-boobs and the use of she instead of he? I mean what was it that defined Arcee as female in TFTM? Replace the voice with a mans and does anything change about the character?
Theres a bit of flirting with Hot Rod and Springer or at least Hot Rod trying to impress her/him. But thats more how other Transformers respond to him/her. And I'd hope introducing female Transformers would serve a better purpose than introducing dating in to the fiction. Nothing wrong with it, but whats the point of adding an element that can already be found in just about every other comic book out there.
Apart from same sex dating controversy(or not) would any female Transformer being male (or if all transformers were referred to as female) significantly change anything in any series?
Once you take away a biological necessity for two versions of the same species is there a good reason for a split into genders other than as humans it's the easiest divide in a species to understand?
Transformers have exhibited some differences that could be used as the basis of such a split, but would still require an explanation as to why it would be by gender. The recent constructed cold and load bearers? concepts, before that the G2 spawning idea.
In terms of reproduction G2 or the Spark splicing(cover story)concept are the closest parallel to male female and only then if the ability was limited to only part of the population.
Psychological differences between male and female are more or less going to be a result of biological differences too, Okay it could be cultural/upbringing, but if you dont already have the sexes or some other physical divide to start with where does the cultural difference arise from? If you come up with a physical distinction between the two you have some justification for different behaviour, but again what characteristic difference between two sets of Transformers leads to one group saying we are women?
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Rich
Protoform
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Post by Rich on Jan 2, 2014 17:21:42 GMT
I agree that the vast majority of Transformers have been depicted according to largely western norms of the male gender, which was done to help them appeal to boys. It may never have been stated explicitly that they were male and as a consequence this may have left fertile territory for debate and storytelling, but the reality, as far as I'm concerned, is that the toys, the Sunbow cartoon and the Marvel comic largely presented males to appeal to males.
I do have a problem with how 'fembots' (and I am using this term deliberately - it's interesting that to many fans it is a pretty pejorative term) have been depicted in the past, or, at least, how my mind has received their depiction. As a child I thought it was stupid that Hot Rod and Springer clearly fancied Arcee: they were robots! It was bad enough that we had girls and kissing and stupid stuff like that in the real world: I didn't want it in Transformers! And the less said about The Girl Who Loved Powerglide the better.
As a young adult I didn't really think much of the female characters in BW either. Partly my childish prejudices coming to the fore no doubt and partly my feeling that the romantic story elements that seem to come with the overtly 'female' characters did not match the tone of the show, added to a sense that romance and non-sexually reproductive organisms didn't make a lot of sense. Thinking about those stories now, and adding in Elita 1 and her friends from ...War Dawn (?), I can't help thinking that their depiction was always rather shallow and almost invariably in connection with romance and usually with the 'female' character in a somewhat subservient position. Blackarachnia was a great character, but, I always felt, undermined by her played-for-laughs romance with Silverbolt - a relationship that seemed to rob her of her brains. To be fair to those stories and the fans that have identified with those characters, I'd probably need to watch them again and attempt to view them from a feminist perspective, but being unfair because I don't have time to do that, I think that most of the physically 'female' characters did little to depict particularly positive female role-models - the fetishisation of some (all?) of those characters by certain elements of the fan community would seem to be a symptom of that (although, perhaps this reflects the inability of some men to see women (even when of another species) as anything other than a sex object - something Michael Bay certainly doesn't seem to be able to do.
Even Arcee's name has always seemed insulting to women to me.
My feeling about Furman's stories for Marvel (again re-reading would be fair, but this isn't an academic study) is that as an adult writing stories about toys for children he found the issue uncomfortable, and not something he could address, so he was inclined just to make it go away. At IDW, I think, again, he thought it better to shut it down as an issue.
Should IDW TF be male or female? I think not. It does seem to go against the established continuity (however badly handled or not in Spotlight Arcee, and, more importantly it seems to send us down entirely different narrative avenues than James, in particular, has been taking us. I think that TF do need to have some human characteristics, but this significant difference - the lack of gender - seems to allow for them to be used to explore themes of gender and sexuality in a more interesting way than giving them gender would.
Should TF have gender in other continuities? I don't see why not. Although, I don't see much point in their having gender if they don't reproduce sexually. Sexual reproduction by Transformers could be interesting (I seem to recall Jack Lawrence did it in his BW story), but I would suspect it would ultimately lead to stories I wouldn't be interested in and certainly that Hasbro would not want to sanction.
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Post by Marc Graham on Jan 3, 2014 8:52:17 GMT
This topic totally trolled Furman's blog. Lots of agendas on the loose here.
Basically I find - coming from Northern Ireland - that some people come to any conversation or debate with predisposed agendas - ie, us and them, you're either a member of our group or our opponents.
Seems like some have taken that viewpoint and applied it to gender in Transformers.
Which.
Is.
Freaking.
Stupid.
That is really all I have to say on the subject. I will judge new stories on their own merit, but honestly gender is a factor of biological reproduction and relentlessly judging non-biological fictional characters this way is nonsense. This isn't France, I don't have to decide if the cup I'm going to drink out of is male or female.
Lets all move on....
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Post by Kingoji on Jan 3, 2014 14:23:27 GMT
I think Matt's posistion would better served if people understood that when he says the robots are portrayed male, he essentially means theye are portrayed as masculine. This is a term that CAN be applied to non gender objects. Such as in fashions; high heels for example are certainly feminine, but they aren't female. If a man wore a dress and heels he'd look feminine but he wouldn't BE a woman. It's that principal. Certain aesthetics will either resonate instinctually as masculine or feminine, and the robots mostly do as well. And that's if you leave out the sex of their actors or their largely stereotypical behaviours.
Admittedly, this applies much less to the comics that brought most of the people on these boards to the table. The cartoon specifically stated Arial was Pax's girlfriend, for example. But I don't think it's coincidence for example that pretty much the only time Furman wrote a robot blatantly expressing how much they care for another robot it happened to be Rodimus and Arcee.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 3, 2014 18:15:11 GMT
This isn't France, I don't have to decide if the cup I'm going to drink out of is male or female. Is robot Male or Female in French (and other languages) |
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primenova
Fusilateral Quintro Combiner
Posts: 6,057
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Post by primenova on Jan 3, 2014 23:15:12 GMT
Should there be fem-bots? Back in G2 the bio-stuff was all by male style characters - like with the Gremlins all male but bio-reproduce.
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Post by blueshift on Jan 3, 2014 23:28:28 GMT
Should there be fem-bots? Yes, it should be 50-50, why not? |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 3, 2014 23:43:02 GMT
Because they're robots with no concept of gender. Hence Prime's Rib and Furman's later IDW Arcee storyline.
Interestingly on that was it a change in Arcee or a change in the way others treated Arcee that made 'her' 'female'. Arguably it was the latter and that was what goat Arcee's goat.
And I'm pretty sure high heels were originally worn by male horse back archers before women adopted them as a status and fashion symbol...
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 3, 2014 23:45:14 GMT
Additionally its not biologically 50-50 in the human population. And from a gender (rather than biological sex) perspective their are some arguments (of different qualities) that can be made for more than two genders.
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Post by blueshift on Jan 3, 2014 23:50:35 GMT
Because they're robots with no concept of gender. No, robots have no gender, but if you are going to make a ton of them masculine, you might as well make a ton feminine, it makes no difference and there's no reason not to. I mean, it's the same difference (ie none) Also high heels =/= female. |
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