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Post by The Doctor on Jan 4, 2014 13:32:15 GMT
If robots are just analogues for human norms, what's the point in them being robots then? May as well go read something like x-men then.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 4, 2014 15:26:47 GMT
They didn't make them masculine though.
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Post by blueshift on Jan 4, 2014 16:13:55 GMT
If robots are just analogues for human norms, what's the point in them being robots then? May as well go read something like x-men then. -Ralph No but that is a side effect of giving characters gender characteristics. A better statement would be "if you don't want robots to be analogues for humans then they should not look anything like humans and just be big boxes with flashing lights" |
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 5, 2014 0:17:57 GMT
That wouldn't be a better statement as I didn't say that.
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Jan 5, 2014 16:07:54 GMT
I'm reading the Covenant of Primus at the moment (hey, someone has to, I can do a review when I've finished for the relevant thread) and while I feel the aligned continuity isn't 'true' Transformers mythology, the book does touch on specifically this issue. Basically it makes the point that there are a small minority of Transformers who are designed to process data in a different way to the rest, which creates not a distinct gender, but a different 'kind'. When communicating this to other species, ie, humans, Transformers have adopted the he/she pronouns to distinguish them.
It is a bit cliched though, the explanation given is that one in twelve Transformers "required a vast capacity for wide-ranging and parallel thought processing," which I basically read as "one in twelve Transformers can multi-task, and they're the women."
The Covenant of Primus though is written by a woman, so is that just a dressed up joke? Anyway, for the benefit of the thread, here's the full quote (the narrator is Alpha Trion):
"The Primes and later the Transformers do not have gender in the way that humans do. Solus Prime, and those later formed in her lineage, are referred to as ‘she’ in order to comply with your human gender reference terms and to show a distinction that Cybertronians recognise among themselves.
To Cybertronians, there are two distinct ‘kinds’ that we easily divide ourselves into, recognising key differences in the manner in which information is processed. It is widely supposed among the remaining Primes that this difference was necessary for Solus herself to operate the Creation Lathe, which required a vast capacity for wide-ranging and parallel thought processing.
After becoming a part of the wider galactic community, we adopted the habit of using a gender reference protocol when interacting with gendered alien species in order to demonstrate that we are not unfamiliar with the notions of difference and equality.
I note that in human terms there is a rough 1:1 ratio of male to female that does not correspond to our 1:12 distinction, and I apologise to any females of the species who may feel slighted at having had their pronoun applied to the less-numerous type of Cybertronian."
So this perhaps suggests that Arcee's robot form is more female looking to signify the distinction, and that she has that form only to support the use of 'she' to refer to her.
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Post by blueshift on Jan 5, 2014 16:12:17 GMT
Honestly, the more people try and make tortured explanations for things like that, the worse it gets. Why do we need explanations? Do we need explanations as to why some Transformers look like weird monocular robots?
From what I have read about the Covenant book, the consensus seems to be that its a really nice package but the actual writing is weird and fanficcy. The fact that even tfwiki haven't bothered to put all the summaries up speaks volumes, I think.
Also the Fallen isn't evil now, he is just EMO because he killed the WOMAN HE LOVED and that is why he changed his name to The Fallen and jesus christ what.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 5, 2014 17:12:07 GMT
This isn't France, I don't have to decide if the cup I'm going to drink out of is male or female. Is robot Male or Female in French (and other languages) Male apparently! |
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Post by Marc Graham on Jan 6, 2014 9:53:12 GMT
Because they're robots with no concept of gender. No, robots have no gender, but if you are going to make a ton of them masculine, you might as well make a ton feminine, it makes no difference and there's no reason not to. I mean, it's the same difference (ie none) Also high heels =/= female. Forgive my ignorance - but what does "=/=" mean? If you mean not equal I'd have thought ¬= or != would be used or even <> - I'm just not sure the syntax jumps at me as not equal. Also - getting back on subject, ah wait, I just couldn't be bothered!  |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jan 6, 2014 10:22:52 GMT
=/= is Does Not Equal
It's an equals sign with a line through it.
You can generate it in BBCode like this ≠ (quote this message to see how it was done)
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Post by Marc Graham on Jan 6, 2014 10:42:00 GMT
It doesn't look like an equal sign with a slash through it to my eyes... but enough digression - I return you to your prior debate....
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Post by The Doctor on Jan 25, 2014 23:37:09 GMT
I moved a post about the Wingblade comic to the thread for that, which will remain locked until that comic comes out. Cheers all.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 7, 2018 22:44:08 GMT
No interest in getting Slash so not too bothered it doesn't integrate into the combined form. A shame, she's actually a fun little toy. Very "fiddle-inducing" and quite fun in both modes. With a bonus seat in dino-mode that Titanmaster's can sit in (and hang of for dear life) as she runs about. Karl I'll take a closer look but just adverse to supporting the idea of gendered Transformers in general. |
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Post by Toph on Jan 7, 2018 23:47:53 GMT
All transformers are gendered already though. A lack of female coded transformers doesn't stop optimus and bumblebee from being male coded. It's been that way since 1984.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 8, 2018 8:53:19 GMT
All transformers are gendered already though. A lack of female coded transformers doesn't stop optimus and bumblebee from being male coded. It's been that way since 1984. Respectfully, I disagree. |
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Post by blueshift on Jan 8, 2018 12:03:33 GMT
All transformers are gendered already though. A lack of female coded transformers doesn't stop optimus and bumblebee from being male coded. It's been that way since 1984. Respectfully, I disagree. So if Optimus Prime was voiced by a female actor you wouldn't even blink? |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jan 8, 2018 17:57:02 GMT
Nope.
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primenova
Fusilateral Quintro Combiner
Posts: 6,057
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Post by primenova on Jan 8, 2018 19:20:23 GMT
Cybertron Override male in Japan
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Post by browny87 on Feb 26, 2018 12:23:40 GMT
EDIT: spinning out of comments in the IDW reboot thread tmukhub.proboards.com/thread/9728/idw-reboot-rumoursPhil
Whatever they do one thing I'd be up for would be to go from female Transformers as some kind of curiosity to a 50/50 split; reassign genders if we want to reuse classic characters and names (starting with Ratchet!). And in respectful opposition to Jim for once I would like to see gender not be a driver for stories. Every iteration of TFs seems to eventually have some fascination (often not that healthy a one) with imparting human gender onto alien mechanoids that it isn't a natural fit to. Particularly if it involves them looking like super-model robots. Just for once make them the aliens they actually are and not just a reflection of our human society and explore that. cant we just always refer to them as it? rather than he/she etc |
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Post by Toph on Feb 26, 2018 12:39:28 GMT
Being gendered by default as male is not some sort of gender neutral state. And whether everyone agrees or not, it is an indisputable fact that these characters are gendered male by some sort of default.
When Optimus Prime and Megatron are always referred to as He/Him by everyone, including their own alien troops, are voiced exclusively by male actors, and even refer to their own troops as "boys" and "men," they are already gendered.
And we are not alien. We do not have the tools to really conceive of a truly gender neutral society. We're not really built to think like that. English definitely does not really have the tools to speak in gender neutral terms.
Our brains automatically assign gender to something. There *is* room for complexity, and even seeming contradiction. Many of us well accept what we're told over what we see- as this person says he is male, even though he looks completely female, or vice versa. We still understand that, even if some people do not accept it.
But a true non-gendered race is much *much* harder to understand for us.
I would be interested in a genuine attempt at this for transformers. But it could only happen if people automatically would accept transformers being portrayed by female VAs in an even 50/50 split.
But it will never happen. Few writers are capable, even if willing to attempt an authentic non-binary society.
Either way, 100% male does not make things gender neutral. Male is not a default state.
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Post by Toph on Feb 26, 2018 13:14:47 GMT
Addendum:
The Crystal Gems are 100% female coded, yet no one treats them as being genderless or gender neutral by default, as they treat being male coded (like TFs) as such.
If anything, it's the exact opposite.
As a society, we gender *everything.*
We gender every animal, even ones who do not abide by our standards (like snails).
We gender inanimate, and animate objects like cars and computers and robots.
And despite what Tumblr would have one think, this is our natural way of thinking.
But what is not natural, is thinking 100% male is somehow gender neutral or genderless.
Also, this is fiction. They want the characters to be relatable and understandable. There is a massive subset of female fans who want characters that represent them.
People automatically accept that Jazz and Blaster should black coded. And they tend to do that pretty easily, and get upset if human representations of them are not.
But somehow Windblade and Arcee being female coded is unrealistic, and need to be explained.
But Optimus and Bumblebee being male coded is gender neutral.
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Post by blueshift on Feb 26, 2018 14:18:12 GMT
People automatically accept that Jazz and Blaster should black coded. And they tend to do that pretty easily, and get upset if human representations of them are not. Not to be the party pooper, but I've never ever thought that and it confuses me when people get animated about it. I think part of it is it's less easy to give Transformers an ethnic identity as it is a gender one. But as a kid the idea that some Transformers could be black (and Jazz and Blaster?!?) never even crossed my mind. But somehow Windblade and Arcee being female coded is unrealistic, and need to be explained. But Optimus and Bumblebee being male coded is gender neutral. To be fair, that's more a problem that IDW invented for itself in their current continuity with the "ARCEE IS THE ONLY FEMALE ITS A BIG DEAL OK" thing. All other TF iterations beforehand happily had females with zero comment. |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Feb 26, 2018 14:26:21 GMT
People think Transformers have human 'races' as well as gender??
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Post by Toph on Feb 26, 2018 15:00:26 GMT
People think Transformers have human 'races' as well as gender?? Giving TFs human form is assigning them human ethnicities. The human form pretenders are all given caucasian races. Anytime they are turned into humans in fictional stories, they are almost exclusively caucasian (only Bumblebee in TFA bucked this, in part because his VA isn't white. Which, neither has been Jazz traditionally). IDW's artists have been trying to rectify this, though. There's that. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to see themselves reflected in the fiction they consume. To be fair, that's more a problem that IDW invented for itself in their current continuity with the "ARCEE IS THE ONLY FEMALE ITS A BIG DEAL OK" thing. All other TF iterations beforehand happily had females with zero comment. To be fair, the general fan outcry has been "WHY ARE THERE GIRLS IT NEEDS TO BE EXPLAAAINED" since long before IDW. While no one at all ever questions male coded transformers, nor feel they need explaining. |
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Post by KnightBeat on Feb 26, 2018 15:19:22 GMT
It tends to crop up in discussion of the movie series, particularly in discussion of Jazz and the twins. I've not seen it mentioned in the context of the comic/cartoon/toyline, so suspect it's the view of some moviegoers rather than the core fandom.
Edit: Just to note, I hadn't seen Toph's reply when I posted this
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Post by KnightBeat on Feb 26, 2018 15:28:58 GMT
While no one at all ever questions male coded transformers, nor feel they need explaining. Do we have a shared understanding of male coded Transformers, beyond a general view that they're broad shouldered and have a male voice? We may refer to them as 'he' and 'him' in conversation, but I wouldn't even count ROTF Devastator as male, despite the *ahem* appendages. |
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Post by Toph on Feb 26, 2018 15:31:07 GMT
It tends to crop up in discussion of the movie series, particularly in discussion of Jazz and the twins. I've not seen it mentioned in the context of the comic/cartoon/toyline, so suspect it's the view of some moviegoers rather than the core fandom. Edit: Just to note, I hadn't seen Toph's reply when I posted this Really? Because I've been seeing people complain that Jazz's pretender shell was white, since the nineties. Jack Angel (I think? May have been Michael Bell) in an interview on the Matrix-shaped DVD Box Set even mentioned Scatman Crouthers himself was fairly annoyed when he found out that his "car was a honky" like all the others. |
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Post by blueshift on Feb 26, 2018 16:07:28 GMT
Really? Because I've been seeing people complain that Jazz's pretender shell was white, since the nineties. It was only recently I came across that opinion online. Really struck me as odd as it'd be like moaning that Grimlock, Bumblebee or Starscream's pretender shells were white as well. (Though there's more of an argument that *all* the Autobot Pretender shells are white.) The thing is, as robots you can project anything you want on them. I don't think people see Transformers as a race, or if they do, they project their own onto them. I doubt there are Transformer fans in Africa moaning that all the Transformers are white! I think race is an intrinsically human thing. Other stuff like animals and objects get coded by gender all the time, but not race. That to me is the difference. (A bit like asking why there are no black Looney Tunes characters... because they're all animals!) |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 26, 2018 17:10:57 GMT
Thankfully the Marvel comic TF universe (the only one I'm really interested in) is clear on the subject of gender. TFs don't have or understand the human concept of gender, but for some reason (my guess being the fact that the very first encounters of both factions on Earth were with male humans) they use male pronouns when speaking in English. More than a decade after awakening on Earth, when trying to become more accepted by human society, the Autobots are criticised for apparently all being male and so build an Autobot who appears female to human eyes (Arcee) and is referred to by female pronouns in a doomed attempt to placate the feminists.
Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Feb 26, 2018 18:43:42 GMT
Which is how I read the comics and played with the toys as a child. Never occured to me that they had gender or race. I've also never felt the need to see myself represented in fiction at any age, but perhaps I'm odd!
Stories about a gendered robot race would be interesting but best applied to a new start rather than retro-actively imposing it on past stuff. Also do it properly as a 50-50 split as Jim said.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Feb 26, 2018 19:01:47 GMT
Really? Because I've been seeing people complain that Jazz's pretender shell was white, since the nineties. It was only recently I came across that opinion online. Really struck me as odd as it'd be like moaning that Grimlock, Bumblebee or Starscream's pretender shells were white as well. (Though there's more of an argument that *all* the Autobot Pretender shells are white.) The thing is, as robots you can project anything you want on them. I don't think people see Transformers as a race, or if they do, they project their own onto them. I doubt there are Transformer fans in Africa moaning that all the Transformers are white! I think race is an intrinsically human thing. Other stuff like animals and objects get coded by gender all the time, but not race. That to me is the difference. (A bit like asking why there are no black Looney Tunes characters... because they're all animals!) Yes, but when every single humanized version of a TF is portrayed exclusively as white, there is a massive fundamental problem. Especially if you aren't white. Some may say there's no reason Jazz shouldn't be white? There's also no reason that he should. there's also no reason that Grimock or Stranglehold shouldn't be mediterranean, to fit into their gladiator theme. It's not logical for human form TFs to all be white. And the looney toons argument doesn't work either. Were they given human forms, they also should not all be white. Diversity is a good thing. More women, and more people of color make the world a much more interesting place. White people are the only ones who see white and/or male as a default, or neutral. Something that everyone can, or should relate to. That comes back to transformers. Everyone arguing them as gender neutral or genderless as a way to suppress the existence of female coded transformers like Windblade, are ignoring that they will always be male coded, and are asking everyone to treat that as a default. But why? Why should we? Because a TF with a female voice, or feminine attributes is silly? Well Strika doesn't have feminine attributes. She's huge and powerful. One of the biggest of the beast era. Pyra Magna, or Victorion don't have many feminine atributes. Yet they're still shat on just for using female pronouns when it's do commonly accepted for Optimus to use male. Most transformers will always be coded male. It is unacceptible to expect there to be no female coded TFs. Why should we accept all TFs to be exclusively male coded and expected to call them exclusively by male pronouns? The only answer anyone here, or anywhere else for that matter has provided boils down to "male=neutral." If in your eyes transformers have no gender, then you should have no problem with the next Optimus Prime being voiced by Gillian Anderson or Maggie Smith. If that thought even for a second makes you twinge, then you need to look at yourself and ask yourself why? Because you truly see them as genderless, why does it matter? They're both brilliant actors, that command great presence in their voices. |
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