|
|
Post by Pinwig on Apr 29, 2020 13:18:16 GMT
The kind of courage I have a problem with is the kind that places no value on one's own life. If you're willing to throw your own life away ineffectually, what value do you place on other people's lives? So when I see grim-faced Autobots recklessly piling in on Galvatron, Unicron or Overlord and getting killed straight away without achieving anything except showing how brave they are, is that sort of courage really to be admired? Depends on the situation. Think of a Forlorn Hope trying to breach Spanish city walls in the peninsular war, or soldiers driven over the top in the First World War. I would say that takes tremendous courage with almost certainty of death, but will probably achieve nothing. I would still call those soldiers courageous. Cliffjumper may stand no chance against Megatron, but that isn't going to stop him believing he has a chance if the moment's right. |
|
|
|
Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Apr 29, 2020 14:13:56 GMT
A lot of soldiers in the past were either conscripted or tricked into signing up and had limited choice as to which orders to follow or not follow. Conscientious objectors or those willing to make a stand against stupid superiors wasting young lives rather than going along with a senseless slaughter could also be described as courageous.
I suppose courage to me is being willing - by choice, not coercion/compulsion/obligation - to risk something one puts great value on (life, career, reputation, etc.) to bring about a greater good that benefits others rather than oneself.
If your life has low value to you, you're not brave to gamble with it. If your life has high value to you, i.e. you really want to live, then you're showing greater courage when you gamble with it.
In TFUK, I assign greater courage to Ultra Magnus on the volcano after seeing how much he enjoyed life just chilling out under the stars. And to Skids, for returning to the Ark after tasting the good life with his human girlfriend. In neither case were they obliged/ordered to make those sacrifices - they chose to.
Similarly Ratchet, whenever he traded his life to stop Megatron.
Martin
|
|
The Huff
Thunderjet
Hufferlover
Posts: 4,247
|
Post by The Huff on Apr 29, 2020 14:57:07 GMT
The kind of courage I have a problem with is the kind that places no value on one's own life. If you're willing to throw your own life away ineffectually, what value do you place on other people's lives? So when I see grim-faced Autobots recklessly piling in on Galvatron, Unicron or Overlord and getting killed straight away without achieving anything except showing how brave they are, is that sort of courage really to be admired? Isn't it best for courage to go with intelligence, so that if you risk your life it's with the maximum probability of getting a good outcome, for someone else / the greater good if not for yourself, rather than just going over the top and getting mown down? Martin Yes, I agree with this. Also, how many lives did Optimus Prime put in danger when he let himself be killed to satisfy his morals in Afterdeath? Also Scorponok dies chipping Unicrons toenail. Wouldn't a more useful sacrifice be to take command of his troops again & join them in a planned strategic attack? |
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Apr 29, 2020 15:20:53 GMT
Anyone risking their lives to help others shows immense courage, irregardless of how they value themselves. The courage comes from their act, not their self-esteem.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Apr 29, 2020 15:34:13 GMT
Anyone risking their lives to help others shows immense courage, irregardless of how they value themselves. The courage comes from their act, not their self-esteem. I wasn't talking about how they value themselves (in comparison to others), or their self-esteem. I was talking about how much their life means to them personally, not how much they think it is intrinsically worth. A proud warrior could have high self-esteem but not care about living to old age if they can have a glorious death. Someone with low self-esteem could place greater value (to themselves) on their continued survival than a warrior who thinks he's wonderful. I would call that second person, with low self-esteem but a desire to live, more courageous if they risked their life for someone else, than the proud warrior happy to die performing the same act. A sacrifice is measured by how much what you're giving up means to you. So a poor person who gives a fiver that they were going to spend on food to someone who needs it more than they do is being more generous than a rich person who gives a hundred pounds that they can spare easily. The recipient would rather have the hundred pounds from the rich person, but the gift of the fiver from the person to whom a fiver is a big sacrifice is more admirable. Same with any other kind of sacrifice - it's how much you're going to miss / how much you care about what you're sacrificing (life, reputation, freedom, money, whatever) that is the measure of your sacrifice. And also making the sacrifice count for something. Martin |
|
|
|
Post by Andy Turnbull on Apr 29, 2020 15:35:52 GMT
The kind of courage I have a problem with is the kind that places no value on one's own life. If you're willing to throw your own life away ineffectually, what value do you place on other people's lives? So when I see grim-faced Autobots recklessly piling in on Galvatron, Unicron or Overlord and getting killed straight away without achieving anything except showing how brave they are, is that sort of courage really to be admired? Isn't it best for courage to go with intelligence, so that if you risk your life it's with the maximum probability of getting a good outcome, for someone else / the greater good if not for yourself, rather than just going over the top and getting mown down? Martin Yes, I agree with this. Also, how many lives did Optimus Prime put in danger when he let himself be killed to satisfy his morals in Afterdeath? Not as many as you think. Optimus realised he had sacrificed his principles regarding valuing life and therefore ceded defeat to Megatron. If he'd not done so, it's the start of the moral compromise that sees the Autobots no better than the Decepticons. In that sort of war, the collateral damage would be off the charts. I'd argue the story Peace could take place in the reality where this happens. |
|
|
|
Post by Pinwig on Apr 29, 2020 15:57:04 GMT
A lot of soldiers in the past were either conscripted or tricked into signing up and had limited choice as to which orders to follow or not follow. Conscientious objectors or those willing to make a stand against stupid superiors wasting young lives rather than going along with a senseless slaughter could also be described as courageous. Absolutely. But just because a soldier is conscripted or doesn't agree with their superiors doesn't mean they don't show courage in doing what they're being forced to do. |
|
|
|
Post by Shockprowl on Jun 15, 2020 8:36:37 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Jun 15, 2020 9:08:24 GMT
The only true Firepower is Bulletbike's firepower.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Shockprowl on Jun 15, 2020 9:15:39 GMT
.....o....k.....
|
|
|
|
Post by Benn on Jun 15, 2020 9:53:44 GMT
So Bulletbike could out-firepower Action Master Shockwave?
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Jun 15, 2020 10:09:00 GMT
Yes.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Benn on Jun 15, 2020 10:13:21 GMT
Impressive.
|
|
|
|
Post by Shockprowl on Jun 15, 2020 11:07:20 GMT
Unexpected.
|
|
|
|
Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 15, 2020 11:53:58 GMT
Martin
|
|
|
|
Post by Pinwig on Jun 15, 2020 21:09:39 GMT
This thread's going well then.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Jun 15, 2020 21:31:55 GMT
Night at the Museum is rubbish.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Fortmax2020 on Jun 15, 2020 21:48:26 GMT
I'd like to believe you. But I can't.
Firepower is an odd one as not all Transformers toys came with a gun. Although they can borrow each others.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pinwig on Jun 15, 2020 21:56:14 GMT
Oh good lord.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pinwig on Jun 15, 2020 22:01:42 GMT
When I was a kid, I assumed 'Firepower' was the laser-beamy shooting BLAM BLAM CHOOM BZZZSSSZZZ -ness of a Transformer. It wasn't until years later when I got keyring Windcharger and found although he carried no gun, his Firepower was a 7 because of his magnetic abilities! And I found Rumble and Frenzy's Firepowers were also high because of their non-energy projection abilities. So 'Firepower' isn't just about the shooty laser-beamyness. On the flip side of that though, Sludge can stamp hard enough to shatter bridges, but he has Firepower 1. |
|
|
|
Post by Pinwig on Jun 15, 2020 22:04:49 GMT
Bit harsh that Roadbuster only has 6; he's equipped with every weapon under the sun.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pinwig on Jun 15, 2020 22:11:21 GMT
What the actual fuck. Wheelie's firepower (7) is better than Ultra Magnus' (6). I declare this stat broken.
|
|
|
|
Post by Shockprowl on Jun 15, 2020 22:15:19 GMT
Ultra Magnus only has a 6?! I've obviously blanked that from my memory as ridiculous.
Yes, there are some dodgy numbers here and there, and some down-right mistakes. More so than any other Techspec category?
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Jun 15, 2020 22:33:28 GMT
Bit harsh that Roadbuster only has 6; he's equipped with every weapon under the sun. He loses them all though. -Ralph |
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Jun 15, 2020 22:33:55 GMT
What the actual fuck. Wheelie's firepower (7) is better than Ultra Magnus' (6). I declare this stat broken. YOU GET SHIP IF I GET TRIP. -Ralph |
|
|
|
Post by Benn on Jun 15, 2020 23:10:18 GMT
What the actual fuck. Wheelie's firepower (7) is better than Ultra Magnus' (6). I declare this stat broken. Makes sense, his slingshot hurt Grimlocks nose, all of the Decepticon firepower could not graze the Dinobots in dinosaur mode in S2, and in the movie only Devastator was shown close to hurting them. |
|
|
|
Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 16, 2020 7:36:51 GMT
I agree it's hard to know how to interpret firepower. Does it mean the non-contact destructive power of all the weapons personally owned by a TF (which could include Wheelie's secret stash of stolen Quintesson guns), or the weapons included in their toy, or the weapons that they normally carry into battle, or what?
To be fair, Ultra Magnus has never been shown to have great firepower. His TFU entry doesn't even mention his hand-gun.
Megatron, Omega Supreme, Metroplex and Trypticon 10
Shockwave, Bluestreak (gunner), Barrage (gunner) and Ransack 9
Optimus Prime, Tracks, Grimlock, Slag, Perceptor, Starscream (Skywarp's specs), Laserbeak, Dirge, Thrust, Shrapnel, Venom, Devastator 8
First two years' numbers not too silly overall.
Martin
|
|
|
|
Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 16, 2020 15:23:00 GMT
Did you forget courage?
|
|
|
|
Post by Shockprowl on Jun 16, 2020 18:14:36 GMT
Courage? The window to a Transformer's soul? No, sir. It's a page or two back. |
|
|
|
Post by Philip Ayres on Jun 16, 2020 19:12:08 GMT
Hmmm, didn't show when I searched this morning to add the link to the list
|
|
