New toys of old characters?

[Philip Ayres]

prompted by seeing new things done to G1 characters in Combiner Wars and Titan Wars .....

What make a new toy of an old character that character for you?

Can they just slap any name on anything?

Or does it needed something more?

Is the right head enough?

Does it need to be the right colour?

Or the right alternate mode?

Or ......

[Bogatan]

I dont know that name really comes in to it. If the name is the only thing in common for example Cybertron Jetfire then I dont really connect it to the original.

Colour, alt mode, general robot mode layout, head, personality.

If you get two of those done well you're good. Or a combination of more done not as well can work too.

That last one might be the key though. For example G2 Megatron, how much does he have in common with G1?

Colour? No
Alt mode? No
Robot layout? Not really, The arms maybe. The legs not really, the chest is pointy outty. He has a cannon, but in the wrong place.
Head? Yup
Personality? I think so, its hard to remember my initial impression after so long but Im pretty sure I was sold on it quickly.

Compare that to GDO Megatron, if that was the first time Megatron was being presented as a green tank would skeletal ninja warrior with a pair of swords and no cannon have been screaming Megatron at you? Even with that head.

[The Doctor]

My general rule of thumb for any update is: does it have all the play features the original can do? If it can't it's a failure for me even if it is nice on its own merits. Which reads harsher in text than I mean!

-Ralph

[Toph]

There's a lot of intent that gets factored in, for me.

Are we talking about an update, or a new version?

If it's within the same continuity, they can do whatever they like. Armada, Energon, and Cybertron Jetfires are all the same character. Each one is less an update, and more of a new toy that does a new thing.
However, none are G1 Jetfire, and none really pass as him.
However, Classics and Generations Jetfires are totally updates of g1, but have nothing in common with the UT character of the same name.

Cloudier are when a separate character homages an existing character. Aligned Wheeljack for all purposes looks largely like his G1 namesake. But existing in a completely different continuity, with no character traits shared, he absolutely is NOT a new toy of an old character.
But the BH Wheeljack *is* a new toy that does a new thing for that particular WJ.
Likewise, Generations Wheeljack and CW Wheeljack are absolutely intended updates of G1 WJ, but not Aligned.

It goes way beyond just names and looks, as to what is, or is not a new toy of an old character.

[Philip Ayres]

Aug 3, 2015 10:48:52 GMT Bogatan said:

Compare that to GDO Megatron, if that was the first time Megatron was being presented as a green tank would skeletal ninja warrior with a pair of swords and no cannon have been screaming Megatron at you? Even with that head.

Megatron's interesting cos there's a distinct evolution there.

Galvatron is Megatron, but a more futuristic version all round. Robot with cannon on arm and Gun are present. But it's also got the cannon mode, with the treads to the side, which are a precursor of the tank modes for the Action Master and G2 versions. The G2 version has the big cannon, albeit mounted differently, and the right head and from there sets the groundwork for Megatron being a tank for his G2 Leader and Combat Hero versions.

The next two Megatrons are interesting: The very nearly unreleased black Stealth Bomber looks nothing like Megatron but it's got a Big Cannon so you think it could be Megatron. The Gobot Megatron didn't sit well with me for a long time but the silver's right and I've come to realise the blue is a nice nod to the Japanese Megatron.

Of the other Gobots, which are one of the first major reworkings of old character, Prime's good cos of the colours. BB has the gold and black from previous versions so there's something there. Mirage & Sideswipe has the right vehicle mode but wrong colours. Soundwave & Frenzy are a bit of a mess. Ironhide has got better over time as there's been a few Ironhide pickups but as it stands a silver blue and purple Pickup says Decepticon to me more than Autobot.

Megatron's evolution continues: his Beast forms keep the head but generally incorporate the cannon into his right arm. The Rid Megatron is something of an oddity but you're on more familiar ground with Armada's tank then Energon's jet is inspired by Galvatron. Cyberton Megatron just doesn't work for me.

[legios]

The Bio, generally. Because bio is generally the place which tells you about the character - it is there that any psychological ticks and general back-history gets laid out. (Not so much the Tech-Specs, as these logically could change from body to body - I wouldn't expect GoBot Optimus Prime to have the same Firepower as Laser Rod Optimus Prime for example, even though the bio strongly indicates they are the same character and that the new body is a result of a "Variable Transformation Matrix").

Whereas for example - and I swear I am not picking on him, his bio just happens to be to hand - Generations Jetfire has a bio which describes him as a cloistered ivory tower pure scientist who sloped off for a nap for a lot of the War until he woke up and joined the Autobots, and who is really powerful because of his great age. Comparing that to the evangelical techno-junkie made of cutting-edge parts who is convinced that pushing the envelope of military technology will be the key to winning the War who was the The Transformers character called Jetfire, the two don't really seem to be at heart the same character. Indeed, I tend for view Generations Jetfire as a new version of Skyfire, rather than Jetfire, given what we know of him.

Where there isn't a bio, then I tend to source information from any secondary (media) sources which are available as to what sort of character a toy is supposed to be. This can of course give some apparently counter-intuitive results. Whilst LA Movie Optimus Prime toys have a preponderance of visual cues which make them look a lot like the 1984 Optimus Prime toy, the character they represent is different in many respects from the character that the latter toy represented.

Likewise the Generations Armada Starscream - at first glance looks like he is supposed to be the character of Armada Starscream. The bio could be read that way because it is thin enough that it can apply to multiple different characters called Starscream. But there is a pack-in comic which indicates that it isn't Armada Starscream, it is IDW Starscream in a new body... (Whereas, despite a distinctly different physical appearance the bio of Machine ~Wars Starscream strongly points to him being a new version of the 1984 Starscream). So going purely by looks in that case would lead us in a different direction to the other evidence as far as what character he is supposed to be.

I think the short version of what I am trying to say is that in answer to the question of what makes me conclude a given toy is a toy of a particular character is that it is ascribed the same personality and backstory - rather than whether it is aesthetically similar to a previous toy or not.

The answer to what I think is a successful remake of a particular toy is much the same as Ralph's - it has to at least retain the play features of the original toy, if not improve upon them.

It may be that I have a different "toy/character" divide to other folks though.

Karl

[Pinwig]

Very interesting question. I think for me the head is key, followed by the colour. You can make reasonable alterations to the shape, and possibly even the alt mode, but the head has to be the same for me to see the character as being the same. That's why I think CW Prowl works fine, but Animated doesn't. It's a great toy - but the Joe Pineapples approach is too far removed from Prowl to make him synonymous with the G1 version.

Another recent example that is just off is the RiD Jazz - foregoing the visor was a huge mistake. That alone, regardless of how much the rest of the figure looks like him, means I just can't see him as Jazz.

[Benn]

I think it's a combination of everything. The head needs to be close, the colourscheme somewhere there, and an appropriate body. Doesn't always work, though. Neither Energon Downshift nor Prime Wheeljack make me think 'G1 Wheeljack' despite ticking all the boxes. Alternator Wheeljack kinda does though.

I can take Milne and Su's redesigns as the original guys, even though, say, Chromedome has almost nothing in common with his Headmaster ancestor, besides being predominantly brown. EJ's Bumblebee is closer to what I think of as Bumblebee than Animated, though, despite Animated getting more of the body parts right.

I guess it's feel for me. If it feels like the original it's homaging then it works. Botcon toys rarely hit the mark, nor do repurposes in general mostly.

[Philip Ayres]

Aug 3, 2015 19:38:10 GMT Benn said:

I think it's a combination of everything. The head needs to be close, the colourscheme somewhere there, and an appropriate body. Doesn't always work, though. Neither Energon Downshift nor Prime Wheeljack make me think 'G1 Wheeljack' despite ticking all the boxes.

Energon Downshift did it for me, and I'm fond of the Prime one too.

By contrast Armada Wheeljack screams Sideswipe!

[Benn]

That he does, actually!

Downshift and Prime Wheeljack are good toys, I've owned them both, but neither do it quite enough for me. Downshift was closer, though!

[Philip Ayres]

Downshift is another case of the name saying one thing and the toy screaming something else!

[Pinwig]

Woah, now you've confused me. I like Wheeljack, and I like Prime Wheeljack, but I think I like Prime Wheeljack because of his characterisation in the cartoon, not because he looks like a re-imagining of the original. Prime Wheeljack is great; I bought the Dr Wu kit to give him metal katanas and his shoulder rockets back, and the alternate head makes him more cartoon oriented, but he is way too butch and fighty-fighty to be the old Wheeljack. His lumbering robot form is apelike at best rather than svelt ninja swordbot.

So umm, yes. confused by that one.

[Shockprowl]

Aug 3, 2015 9:25:03 GMT Philip Ayres said:

What make a new toy of an old character that character for you?

Can they just slap any name on anything?

Or does it needed something more?

Is the right head enough?

Does it need to be the right colour?

Or the right alternate mode?

Or ......

Great question that I've been pondering. No they cannot just slap a name on something, there has to be some kind of connection to the original character. Including: Similar head(face), similar colour, similar alt mode, but, most importantly of all, the SAME character/personality. There is some tolerance to these parameters in my mind, but characterisation is paramount. A character can evolved, but I don't like to get too deep into that. I like my characters.

[Philip Ayres]

Your personal fave Prowl came to mind.

Take his Beast Wars versions.


The Lion Prowl, I can see what they're getting at with the prowling lion. But the toy looks nothing like him and once you see the Optimus head you can't unsee it and know it's meant to be a Prime of some sort.

Where as the Owl.... There's the prOWL joke in the name for a start, there's some decent plastic colours, in either version, coupled with some clear plastic to make you think of lightbars, a head which looks like a beast distorted version of the original and an amazing bio to back it up.

[Shockprowl]

Phil, darling, I couldn't agree more. The two Beast Wars Prowls are a classic example. One just has the name slapped on, the other is PERFECTION.

[Llama God]

I, on the other hand, am really quite simple. If it says the name, then... I'll buy it as the character. Provided it's accompanied by some fiction. (And by "fiction" the tech specs will suffice*.) The conditioning that I experienced during childhood clearly worked...


(*And by "tech specs" I do of course mean the detailed, G1 versions.)

[primenova]

Do the Micromasters.

So then Cyclonus has got him self a team if the 4 air strike patrol members are his team. Then we'll get a new Seawatch toy & also Brawl gets repainted for Battle patrol with some new tanks too. Fixit being a First aid repaint with just a new head only. But all MM ones can have MM printed on them. hood or front or whatever they are. jet/tanks

hotspot - redhot. firstaid - fixit. streetwise - stakeout. seawatch new toy. new character.

1st jet repaint - storm cloud/ nightflight. 2nd jet repaint - whisper. alphabravo - tailwind.