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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 5, 2015 15:56:44 GMT
I think zero consistency really hurts it with the long time fans. I mean, look how many fans STILL believe WfC and FoC are G1 based games? After how many years, now? (Though IDW pointlessly stealing FoC designs for their G1 setting doesn't help) Yeah but lets be fair, they totally ARE G1 based games for all intents and purposes  If they wanted them to be Prime games they should have used TF:Prime head designs for the characters as opposed to more traditional ones! Making those games TF:Prime ones was a stupid idea. And maybe not releasing the toys in the same line as original Transformers remakes might have helped. No, to my mind it's G1 that's been squeezed into Prime to support it. |
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Post by Pinwig on Sept 5, 2015 16:54:31 GMT
There are different levels of complexity in answering that question, but when it comes to it in the fiction FoC and WfC are embedded in the aligned continuity, so they're an aspect of the universe Prime is in. That's the really simple factual answer, beyond that I'd be here forever trying to weigh it up. It's G1 inspired, but it isn't G1.
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2015 17:42:53 GMT
I believe it was always Hasbro's intent that WfC was to be the prequel for Prime.
Which makes all the inconsistencies really *really* bad.
It's one thing to give your people artistic freedom, but they did not even bother trying to keep anyone on the same page.
It's impossible to tell from a visual standpoint that WfC Bumblebee is the same character as Prime Bumblebee. They are so visually fundamentally different, and they don't even have the same personality.
I mean, it's the exact opposite of Animated where everyone involved was as meticulous as possible to ensure that nothing contradicted anything else, and that everything fit with everything else.
But then Prime couldn't even really keep continuity with itself.
(I hate the games as Aligned, but I despise them as G1, but that's a whole different rant)
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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 5, 2015 17:44:17 GMT
as someone who's never bothered with the fiction, or the games, the toys scream original TFs at me. They lack the Prime aesthetics.
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2015 17:46:41 GMT
They lack G1 asthetics, too. Starscream looks like someone put Hulk in a spidey costume and called it Spiderman.
Toy isn't as extreme as the game design, but it's still really extreme.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 5, 2015 17:47:24 GMT
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2015 20:26:59 GMT
I wasn't talking about Prime Starscream?
I was talking about G1 and FoC.
He still looks nothing like G1 asthetically.
As I said, it's like putiing Hulk in Spidey's costume and calling him Spiderman.
It does not work.
No WfC/FoC works in that regard. They are the ugliest and least practical TF designs ever. Even over Bayformers.
The designers literally have no understanding of anatomy or engineering.
(the prime designers aren't much better in that regard, either.)
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 5, 2015 20:38:11 GMT
Sausages.
-ralph
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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 5, 2015 20:41:10 GMT
I was talking about G1 and FoC. He still looks nothing like G1 asthetically. You've said this a few times: I don't agree. FOC version has G1 Starscream head
Like G1 Starscream FOC has the jet cockpit on chest
An aproximation of the G1 Starscream air intakes on the shoulders
The same grey/blue/red colour mix, albeit heavier on the red
A weapon under each wing that can be mounted on each arm I wasn't talking about Prime Starscream? The overall question is "War For Cybertron & Fall of Cybertron: G1 or Prime?" and, to my eyes, the FoC version is close to the G1 versions than any Prime version. I can see the FOC version as a Cybertron G1 Starscream. I cannot see the FOC version as a Cybertron Prime Starscream. |
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2015 20:49:51 GMT
My appologies. I thought you were addressing my las comment specifically, and thought I was talking about WfC Starscream.
I agree that it looks even less like Prime Starscream.
If WfC Starscream is Hulk dressed up like Spiderman compaired to G1, then compaired to Prime, it's like Hulk dressed up as Spiderman, while telling us he's Nightcrawler.
Prime Scream is usually my favorite example to use as why the WfC games fail.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 5, 2015 20:55:58 GMT
There's plenty of other design examples too:
WFC Bumblebee, Cliffjumper and Soundwave all have heads looking nothing like their Prime Counterparts. Megatron and Prime you can debate, but Megatron and Prime tend towards G1 in most incarnations. If Anything RiD has made it even worse with Jazz, Sideswipe and Grimlock.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 5, 2015 21:00:18 GMT
If it comes down to it I'd have never strayed away from the original design style false stop. That decision for the Movies was a bad one: Transformers was producing toys that didn't look or feel like Transformers. Animated and Prime/BH/RiD also fall into that category for me. Beast Machines is pushing it a bit too in places.
Transformers have a distinct look for me.
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2015 21:22:22 GMT
Aye. I've brought all those up, in other places.
Grimlock is the worst, because not only do they not look anything alike, not only do they (probably) have completely different origins, but their personalities are like night an day, with (from my understanding) FoC Grimlock being as simple and stupid (intelligence) as the sunbow cartoon Grimmy, while NuRid hits up all kinds of Cyborg.
Jazz honestly seems to fall more into acceptible change. Given they're both aping the original design, they both feel more believable as representing the same character in the same universe.
I'm not above characters getting new designs... Even radically different. But in the cases between the games, Prime, and NuRid, they usually just do not feel like they belong in the same continuity.
UT Starscream had four different bodies. But they all managed to feel like the same character, with each one being an evolution of said character. While all homaged a different G1 Starscream, at the same time.
Cybertronian form, only existed in fiction, but looked like he was Armada Starscream in a different body. Armada, homaged G1 Scream with a lot of freshness to it, much like Prime. Energon Scream was a more slavish G1 homage, but still felt like Armada in a new body, while Cybertron Scream homaged WWI G1 scream, but still felt like the same character.
And a big part of why is Armada came first. All other fiction/toys was built around this one. All of them continued to take design cues from the first. And the fiction only pre-earth Starscream design was retro. It looked like "this is where he came from," with the artist understanding his modern/current look. Much like War Within Starscream believably looks like the same character as G1. The artist understood the right elements needed to carry into this retro design (colors, anatomy, body type), and what elements didn't need to carry through (the chest vents, wing kibble placement)
Now if the FoC Starscream body came AFTER Prime, it would be easier to buy. It'd still be sloppy work that took NO consideration of the form that preceeded it into mind, but at least Starscream would have been established.
And you're not thinking "this dude was a physical juggernaut back then? Why'd he lose three quarters of his size? Why does his head look so different?
But then, the game designers don't look up references. That's well established.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 5, 2015 21:59:16 GMT
As a purely toy buyer you know what Nu Rid Grimlock reminds me most of?
Original RiD Grimlock: they're the only Grimlocks to be green.
It's an odd design connection between two identically named yet completely different toy lines
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Post by blueshift on Sept 5, 2015 22:06:24 GMT
As a purely toy buyer you know what Nu Rid Grimlock reminds me most of? Original RiD Grimlock: they're the only Grimlocks to be green. It's an odd design connection between two identically named yet completely different toy lines I assumed he was a RiD Grimlock homage to be honest |
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Post by Toph on Sept 5, 2015 22:10:41 GMT
Aye, it is indeed.
I do wonder if there wasn't an intentional choice made there, given what an odd (but not asthetically unplesant) design choice that was.
The most recent dinosaur Grimlock was gold, and as Hasbro likes to default between G1 and Movie, I'm surprised they didn't do that to tie into AoE.
Assuming they didn't go straight back to G1 deco as is their other default.
Drift being orange instead of AoE blue is another odd choice. I can see not going white, because Strongarm is white (and white would be really boring on this design)
I think though, I'd be more open to this being called RiD if they had used Sideburn instead of Sideswipe. Hell, Swipe's overall design and personality even works better for Sideburn. His antagonistic interactions with Strongarm even mirrors RiD's interaction with Prowl.
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Post by blueshift on Sept 5, 2015 22:27:05 GMT
I think though, I'd be more open to this being called RiD if they had used Sideburn instead of Sideswipe. Apparently Sideswipe was originally going to be Fastlane but they changed his name for "better recognition". No, I don't understand that either. Really, he should have been Knock-Out. It's sort of a no-brainer. |
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Post by Llama God on Sept 6, 2015 17:49:50 GMT
Bah. I just enjoy the WFC/FoC games for what they are, and then don't try to think of them as being part of anything else...
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Post by Pinwig on Sept 6, 2015 17:52:59 GMT
No! You can't do that! you must get wrapped up in eternal continuity problems to be a proper Transformers fan! it's in the rules.
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Post by Llama God on Sept 6, 2015 18:03:11 GMT
All-right then. I loathe WFC because it makes no sense in terms of Marvel continuity! They had to leave Cybertron to blast a path through an asteroid belt!
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Post by Pinwig on Sept 6, 2015 18:08:04 GMT
Better, better. Phew. I almost had to take your membership card away then.
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Post by Shockprowl on Sept 6, 2015 20:43:19 GMT
HAHAHAAAAA!!!! Brilliant, you guys!
I have played neither game, nor seen any Prime (I just don't learn, do I?). But from what I've seen of the designs, they're clearly G1 based. Kinda. Sorta. Half. Boop.
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Post by Pinwig on Sept 6, 2015 21:17:31 GMT
Yes, well. Your membership card has already been confiscated pending an enquiry into events on planet zero. You're not getting it back until Fort Max is safe!
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Post by Pinwig on Sept 6, 2015 21:32:10 GMT
There are two ways to look at it I think, neither of which are particularly satisfactory. The simple solution is that the transformers reformatted their robot modes as well as their alt modes once on earth. The other is that different artists render characters in different ways. For example John Ridgeway's figures are radically different to Andy Wildman's, but they're the same character.
I'm not saying I'd argue that, but you could view it that way. Unfortunately the aligned continuity is fundamentally broken, so none of it really makes sense. The three novels try to link the game narratives to Prime, but there are so many continuity errors it's impossible to make it work. However they are all supposed to be part of the same time line.
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Post by Toph on Sept 6, 2015 21:45:33 GMT
The other is that different artists render characters in different ways. For example John Ridgeway's figures are radically different to Andy Wildman's, but they're the same character. Yeah, but they're still obviously intended to represent the same characters, and the same designs, only with a different artistic take on it. G1 Optimus drawn by Ridgeway, Wildman, Senior, Pat Lee, and ongoing era Don Figuroa all look wildly different. But they are still recognizable as different interperitations of G1 Optimus Prime. Where as when TFP flashes back to pre-war, Orion Pax looks nothing at all like WfC Optimus Prime (which should be at a very similar time), but he does look like a younger TFP Optimus. Megatron too. |
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Post by legios on Sept 8, 2015 5:49:04 GMT
Sausages.
I tend to see the videogames as their own animal and judge them on their merits (an average corridor shooter and a mediocre corridor shooter with a few fun levels respectively), and I extend the same logic to the toys - some of them I like, some of them I don't like, depending on their individual pros and cons. Whether the games were intended as prequels to Transformers:Prime, or if they were supposed to be an alternate version of the Sunbow cartoon is kind of irrelevant to me. After all, if I want to put WFC Starscream on the same shelf as BM Jetstorm (who aesthetically his vehicle mode has some similarities to) and have FOC Soundwave beating up "The Transformers" Roadbuster...well, they are my toys aren't they?
Karl
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 26, 2022 14:50:41 GMT
Fall of Cybertron is 10 years old THIS MONTH!!!
-Ralph
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Post by Philip Ayres on Aug 26, 2022 16:29:56 GMT
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Post by Pinwig on Aug 26, 2022 17:10:36 GMT
That just means War for Cybertron is 12 years old.
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 26, 2022 20:21:22 GMT
He is not taking the news well. -Ralph |
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