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Post by Bogatan on Dec 10, 2019 16:28:58 GMT
2 seasons in on DS9 and its odd watching both Nog and Odo and just generally realising how old the show is now.
Season 1 is now closer to TOS season 1 than to today.
Also just finished TNG. I've always had an under appriciation of All Good Things because I read the novelisation first. When I finally saw it I was disappointed by all the bits from the book that weren't in it. But watching it today, its bloody brilliant. Of course the futures scenes are now alternative present scenes (or will be when Picard starts) which is again odd.
Aging make up is pretty good, but I'd love to see it refilmed by the cast now. just because.
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Post by Toph on Dec 10, 2019 20:53:00 GMT
All Good Things: put a skunk streak in Data's hair, and have everyone comment "Wow Data you look so old now! It's amazing how you can age!"
Picard: How the frak are we going to make Spiner look 30 years younger?
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 15, 2019 20:02:36 GMT
4 years to get get Sanctuary Districts seems plausable. In which case Trek might have gotten its first bit of future history correct.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 15, 2019 20:09:59 GMT
Enjoyed Generations. I mean its very much a better looking than normal double episode than a movie, but in that context its fine. I still like the Enterprise B scenes, though because it so well done and feels very much like the previous movies it probably makes the TNG era stuff look worse. The weird choice to use ill fitting Voyager uniforms also doesnt help.
All Good Things.. done as a movie on Generations budget would have been much better.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 15, 2019 20:11:52 GMT
4 years to get get Sanctuary Districts seems plausable. In which case Trek might have gotten its first bit of future history correct. Ha! Just realised at Botcon 2009 I partied in the Sanctuary District.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 15, 2019 20:12:36 GMT
"Partied" may be over stating my activities.
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Post by Toph on Dec 15, 2019 20:22:50 GMT
Enjoyed Generations. I mean its very much a better looking than normal double episode than a movie, but in that context its fine. I still like the Enterprise B scenes, though because it so well done and feels very much like the previous movies it probably makes the TNG era stuff look worse. The weird choice to use ill fitting Voyager uniforms also doesnt help. All Good Things.. done as a movie on Generations budget would have been much better. I think they had planned completely new uniforms that were TNG styled versions of the TOS movie jackets. My belief for this is the Generations toys had new uniform designs, combined with the weird sudden half switch to DS9 uniforms. Why they pulled back, I dunno. (Probably likely budget, though it would create a logistic nightmare to explain them between this, DS9, and the upcoming Voyager)
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Post by blueshift on Dec 15, 2019 20:29:20 GMT
They made new outfits for everyone but apparently they were awful to film with and look bad. I remember seeing some early footage where they actually film with the new costumes
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Post by Philip Ayres on Dec 15, 2019 20:49:49 GMT
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 15, 2019 20:55:03 GMT
Ive seen the toys and thought they looked quite good, shame if they didnt film well.
Still baffling to see them switching between uniforms.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 15, 2019 20:56:35 GMT
Thats the one Ive read. I have no interest in Star Trek toys and yet I kind of want the Kirk Scotty and Chekov. Mostly Scotty.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 15, 2019 21:38:58 GMT
Oh no. Ive reached Voyager. I used to love Caretaker pts1&2. But then I spent 7 years being disappointed and it now fills me with dread.
I'd probably skip but seven is in Picard. So the rewatch is required.
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Post by Toph on Dec 15, 2019 22:39:51 GMT
All these years later, Voyager and Enterprise are better now than they were then.
Largely because all the disappointment is long out of the way, and it's easier to enjoy it for what it is because it's so long over, what it isn't just won't happen.
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 16, 2019 8:59:51 GMT
Indeed.
-Ralph
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 16, 2019 11:28:39 GMT
I hope thats the case. I havent rewatched most of it since it first aired in the UK and theres still a few I havent seen at all due to the vcr failing to record them.
Having said that Im not holding out too much hope. My issues are too baked in to it. I like Mulgrew in other stuff Ive seen her in but Ive never quite got what she was going for with Janeway. The big reset button which even TNG had somewhat left behind by this point. The lack of conflict between the marguis and starfleet except when it suited the plot. Reoccuring enemies despite Voyager seemingly going in a straight line quicker than they should be able to travel. Enemies that are dull dull dull. Diminishing the Borg. That last episode.
I'll be very happy if even some of these arent as bad as I remember.
Plus side, I remember most of Qs episodes being fun. Sevens introduction mostly the start of an improvement. The EMH.
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Post by blueshift on Dec 16, 2019 12:08:04 GMT
I think the biggest issue with Voyager is 'why bother with the setup'
The two interesting things are the crew being half space terrorist, and the ship being lost and alone in a deep area of space.
Neither of these two facts ever really affect the show. I think it would have gone down better if it had just been set in the Alpha quadrant, as it was written that way!!
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 16, 2019 14:05:04 GMT
For me thats less the issue than why I wont give it the benefit of doubt. IF they had really pushed the show unique elements, in the way DS9 did, even if it hadnt worked I would have appriciated it more. But by largely ignoring those all I can do is compare it to TNG. And that does it no favours.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 16, 2019 15:36:57 GMT
Its like Kes and Neelix seeing the EMH vanish for the first time and nothing. No reaction. Whats the point of a less advanced area and having the locals be completely okay with it.
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 16, 2019 15:53:29 GMT
I still enjoy Voyager despite its faults though I now have to skip Kes-centric episodes.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Dec 16, 2019 15:53:44 GMT
I was never so glad at anything as I was when they left the Kazon behind. It's like they took all the most boring qualities of the klingons, cardassians, and romulans, threw it all in a blender, then wrapped it up in an extremely ugly, slightly (and unintentionally) racist package. There was nothing redeemable about them as they were shown.
And Seska, would have been a much more interesting character if she stayed a member of Voyager's crew, instead of betraying them. No one likes her, no one trusts her, and the feeling is mutual. But she wants to get home just as badly as the rest of them, and cooperation is the only option she has.
I still think that each season needed to be a largely self contained story arc. · A Plot: Story of the episode- The typical trek stuff. Usually resolved by the end of the episode. · B Plot: Seasonal Story Arc- usually the villain of the season. Never resolved by the end of the episode. · C Plot: Overarching Character Plots- The ongoing growth of the crew.
DS9 and TNG are much better shows, but I've realized I don't think about or talk about them much. Voyager and Enterprise though I almost obsess over, because there's so much more to think about. So much more to "fix."
WHY DIDN'T WE SEE MORE NAOMI+TOM?!? With Tom's Big Kid/Fun Uncle personality seems like they would be natural friends! B'Elanna wakes up one morning and goes out into the livingroom to find both of them sitting on the floor, eating cereal, wearing matching pyjamas and watching saturday morning cartoons (pyjamas naomi probably wasn't wearing before and she knows tom wasn't). Because Ensign Wildman and Neelix are being sent on a multi-day away mission, Sam asks Tom to babysit. Tom freaks out "I can't babysit, I'll screw it up!" To which B'Elanna responds "Oh my god tom, yes we'll take her." Sam grabs his head and say "Tom! The only difference between this, and what you normally do with her is making sure she goes to bed on time!" And the whole arc culminates when B'Elanna's pregnant. Tom's low-key freaking out about how he'll be an awful parent because his dad was. Sam reminds him that he's been great with Naomi. He was more involved than he realized, and wasn't just the "fun uncle." He'll be a great dad. And just like Tuvok, she'll be there to help them figure out how to be parents.
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Post by blueshift on Dec 16, 2019 16:13:39 GMT
Oh man the Kazon. I didn't MIND them so much though they weren't massively interesting. It was more that they were supposed to be travelling home but still kept bumping into the same people and getting involved in local poltics over the season. Can't do both, folks!!!
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 16, 2019 16:56:25 GMT
Yeah ongoing conflict needed to be onboard ship which is presumably why the maquis where there in the first place.
But instead of developing a stock of maquis reoccuring characters they mainly stick to the lead 3 all of whom are former Starfleet or Academy so are far less conflicted. Just look at some of the maquis already appearing in DS9 and imagine them being on board. Its a completely different story.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 16, 2019 17:54:23 GMT
And episodes 3 and 4 both revolve around timey-whimey stuff.
*sigh*
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 16, 2019 18:00:35 GMT
The Voyager relaunch novels by Kirsten Beyer are excellent, however, and in may ways better than the show. You can see how she got a gig on telly Trek off the back of them.
-Ralph
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 17, 2019 13:11:19 GMT
FFS Neelix!
I get the idea. Quark as a non federation type generally worked well on DS9 so a local guide on voyager makes sense, but Star Trek did not need its own version of Del Boy. And he drags down Kes who Im actually liking when shes with the doctor.
Also they dont have the energy to replicate coffee but can use the holodecks constantly. And I'd forgotten how quickly and badly voyager started using the holodeck. Its such a relief that DS9 kept them off camera most of the time.
7 episodes in and theres been no maquis tension for about 3 episodes. What was the point? They might as well have combined with another ship brought by the caretaker from somewhere completely different at least then theres the potential for cultral clashes that dont exist between a group of current starfleet and previous starfleet.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 17, 2019 13:35:15 GMT
Oh yay, its another timey whimey one. 3 out of 7 episodes.
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Post by Toph on Dec 17, 2019 17:17:07 GMT
Captain Braxton is the most relatable antagonist in all of Trek, as he hates Voyager for no other reason than the annoyance they cause him in the time stream.
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Post by Toph on Dec 17, 2019 18:28:30 GMT
I think one of the biggest problems with the early seasons is the writers were writing for completely different characters, which creates some disingenuous and sometimes wildly OOC portrayals, while Ignoring that the characters (and actors) had figured themselves out really early on.
From the second or third episode on, it's obvious that Paris isn't this selfish unreliable womanizing badboy that they designed him to be. It's also wildly obvious that Neelix isn't this scheming, jealous poor-man's ferengi, who's loyalty the script occasionally questions.
And I don't think they (the writers) ever realized who Chakotay is, even though he's pretty much right there.
On a side note not related to that, something really awesome would have been that once they were in Borg space, they switched almost entirely to Maquis tactics. Combination of Seven's knowledge with Maquis tactics is what help them get through it alive. "Break" Voyager. Make it look like it's derelict at a moment's notice. Mask warp signature, and energy patterns with maquis tricks in the bands that the Borg scan. Best way to have Voyager "beat" the Borg without wussing out the Borg like they actually did. How thrilling would a cold open be for a Borg cube to be actively scanning a "derelict" Voyager while all crew are hoping and praying that the ruse works.
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Post by Bogatan on Dec 17, 2019 18:43:41 GMT
Yeah I think that's why I've never got Janeway. She's played as completely different characters from scene to scene. When she's with Tuvok its almost ridiculous how much her speech an mannerism are Kirk talking to Spock.
With almost everyone else she's more like Spock with anyone but Kirk or McCoy. Some times they remember she's a science officer and she;s the smartest person in the room other times they don't. She's a sassy 1940s reporter and other times she goes all Ripley (literally if I remember one episode in a few seasons time). They don't, at least so far, seem to know if she's remote from her crew or not. They even add a captains log about it. Picard had the same tension but it never needed to be spelt out. She just seem to be whatever the script calls for at that moment.
Honestly I wish they had opted for the female Kirk version. I think Mulgrew would have been great at it and it would have helped Tuvok's role too.
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Post by Toph on Dec 17, 2019 19:21:13 GMT
The real Janeway, the one that's buried under all the writers indecision (and I think the one Mulgrew tried to play when they let her) is the Wine Aunt.
She's maternal towards her crew, without getting to the point of mothering them. She's often the smartest person in the room, but she enjoys letting her crew figure things out on their own, and their solutions often pleasantly surprise her. She'll let her crew have fun in ways that most Starfleet captains wouldn't, because these are impossible situations. As long as duties aren't neglected, the ship is in good condition, and no one gets hurt, who cares if it isn't exactly Starfleet regulation?
The most disingenuous version of Janeway is the version that stands apart from the crew (without it being explained as depression, which Janeway privetly struggling with depression would have been BRILLIANT), because she seems most natural when surrounded by people. Of all captains before or since, she seems most realistic if she were seated square in the middle of mess hall, surrounded by crew, telling stories of her academy days. Of all captains, she seems the most likely to have a personal relationship with each member of her crew, and take it so personally for each one she loses.
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