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Post by Philip Ayres on Aug 6, 2023 12:18:52 GMT
Why are game pieces not coloured? It's a huge barrier for entry for look like me. Screwball Scramble doesn't need painting before it works. Genuine question! -Ralph It'll be because the game is descended from Warhammer which had lead miniatures, like many other RPGs at the time, which required painting. The need to paint excluded my wobbly hands and probably contributed to biasing me against RPGs early in my teens |
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Post by Pinwig on Aug 6, 2023 13:46:54 GMT
That and the fact that painting them would increase the cost. Think about how small these are, even basic painting would be hard. They'd end up looking Hornby or Subbuteo level, not worth the cost.
I remember back in the 80s you could buy moulds and cast your own. I had the kit to do that.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Aug 6, 2023 14:01:56 GMT
You get pre-painted figurines (e.g. Marvel, DC) with magazines, and they tend to be larger and sometimes less expensive than tiny unpainted gaming miniatures.
Martin
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Post by Pinwig on Aug 6, 2023 15:03:24 GMT
There are differences though. Those eaglemoss type figures are a single production run done to fit a specific subscription number with a few extras to keep in stock. They're also not very detailed and the painting is basic.
Warhammer figures have much more fine detail and are much more time intensive to paint to even a moderate standard. If the figures came painted the cost would be put up by that and the need to assemble the figures (by and large they come on sprues as kits). If they were painted it would annoy the hobbyists who want to paint them, a poor quick paint job would ruin the fine detail so a lot of the fan base would complain.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Aug 6, 2023 15:14:06 GMT
Maybe if they were equally available unpainted and pre-painted (with pre-painted a little more expensive), it might expand the fanbase to be equally accessible to people that don't want the hassle.
Martin
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Post by legios on Aug 6, 2023 16:24:26 GMT
Why are game pieces not coloured? It's a huge barrier for entry for look like me. Screwball Scramble doesn't need painting before it works. Genuine question! -Ralph A few people have explained what people like about unpainted miniatures as opposed to prepaints, and that is a valid discussion. But as to _why_ they aren't - that is more related to how the wargaming hobby evolved:- A significant part of the tabletop wargaming hobby has for decades been painting the miniatures. It evolved from a late 1800s collision between military table-top (Paper) exercises and the hobby of collecting model soldiers, and the toy soldiers available at the time tended not to be accurate enough for the military nerds who were primarily attracted to the hobby. Thus a major part of things became repainting them to more accurately reflect the forces involved in a particular conflict. From that evolved a cottage industry producing unpainted figures, so you didn't have to contend wit painting over an existing paint job. These became the norm amongst wargamers and when Fantasy wargaming evolved (seceded/were cast out for heresy/ whatever) from the historical community, it developed with that same norm in place (as did the use of miniatures in Roleplaying games, which developed from the fantasy wargaming tradition). It is "the way things are done". Every so often someone experiments with an alternative approach - Flames of War, the WWII game has pre-coloured miniatures I understand which are very nice. Firefight, the Mantic Games system, uses prepainted miniatures. The Star Wars, and Star Trek miniatures games also sold the game pieces prepainted. (The X-Wing game still does). But other games like Firefight or Warhammer 40,000 are aimed squarely at the traditional wargaming audience, rather than the board game audience, and have developed in the wargaming ecosystem with its norms, rather than the boardgame one where - as you observe - the expectations are different. Karl |
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Post by legios on Aug 6, 2023 16:28:07 GMT
I would also observe that the painting of wargaming miniatures is a hobby in itself - one that can exist alongside, or completely separate from the playing of games.
For example, I purchase and paint Battletech miniatures. I don't currently play the game, and their is - to my knowledge - no Battletech playing community in this area to play against. But that doesn't stop me enjoying painting a Marauder IIC in a "parakeet inspired" jade green scheme, or a WHM-7K in the red livery of the Sword of Light regiments.
The painting of the miniatures can be an end in itself.
Karl
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Post by Pinwig on Aug 6, 2023 16:32:07 GMT
Absolutely. I had a very arty girlfriend decades ago who used to love buying miniatures just to paint them. I still have a couple of Ents she did for me. She never played the game.
I never really got to grips with it either, despite amassing an army. I preferred fighting fantasy and by extension from that the Warhammer fantasy battle RPG that didn't use the miniatures, the one more like D&D.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Aug 6, 2023 18:06:56 GMT
You don't HAVE to, although, I admit it can feel like that sometimes. I have no intention of painting these Hero Quest minis for example. But the painting is a big part of it for a lot of people. It makes them personal, and allows them to be creative. Painting is just a fun extra. Wonder if pre-painted miniatures have ever been officially tried...? My friend hates painting them, so he is paying someone to paint up his models. He assembles them, sends them to the person,painted models come back. |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Aug 6, 2023 18:09:05 GMT
Why are game pieces not coloured? It's a huge barrier for entry for look like me. Screwball Scramble doesn't need painting before it works. Genuine question! -Ralph A few people have explained what people like about unpainted miniatures as opposed to prepaints, and that is a valid discussion. But as to _why_ they aren't - that is more related to how the wargaming hobby evolved:- A significant part of the tabletop wargaming hobby has for decades been painting the miniatures. It evolved from a late 1800s collision between military table-top (Paper) exercises and the hobby of collecting model soldiers, and the toy soldiers available at the time tended not to be accurate enough for the military nerds who were primarily attracted to the hobby. Thus a major part of things became repainting them to more accurately reflect the forces involved in a particular conflict. From that evolved a cottage industry producing unpainted figures, so you didn't have to contend wit painting over an existing paint job. These became the norm amongst wargamers and when Fantasy wargaming evolved (seceded/were cast out for heresy/ whatever) from the historical community, it developed with that same norm in place (as did the use of miniatures in Roleplaying games, which developed from the fantasy wargaming tradition). It is "the way things are done". Every so often someone experiments with an alternative approach - Flames of War, the WWII game has pre-coloured miniatures I understand which are very nice. Firefight, the Mantic Games system, uses prepainted miniatures. The Star Wars, and Star Trek miniatures games also sold the game pieces prepainted. (The X-Wing game still does). But other games like Firefight or Warhammer 40,000 are aimed squarely at the traditional wargaming audience, rather than the board game audience, and have developed in the wargaming ecosystem with its norms, rather than the boardgame one where - as you observe - the expectations are different. Karl There is also the aspect that the licensed games operate with strictly defined characters, colours and the like. Warhammer 40,000 and his ilk has always favoured folks bringing their own ideas to the table, alongside their homebaked characters and colour schemes. |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Aug 6, 2023 18:10:13 GMT
As it stands I have now six tabletop ready miniatures,5 in mid flow and another 5 will now be started on.
Cypher and his group of Fallen Dark Angels are ready.
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Post by legios on Aug 6, 2023 18:38:31 GMT
I never really got to grips with it either, despite amassing an army. I preferred fighting fantasy and by extension from that the Warhammer fantasy battle RPG that didn't use the miniatures, the one more like D&D. Ahh, WFRP ("Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay") oft pronounced "Whoof-Rup" amongst my circles. Only played it sporadically, but I do have fond recollections of it. Good game that one. Karl |
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Post by legios on Aug 6, 2023 18:40:57 GMT
As it stands I have now six tabletop ready miniatures,5 in mid flow and another 5 will now be started on. Cypher and his group of Fallen Dark Angels are ready. I've got roughly ten nearly table ready - 5 in Terminator Tactical Dreadnaught Armour, and 5 regular tactical marines. I've got another five tacs on the way, and another Terminator partly assembled (needs the Assault Cannon arm finished up and attached). Then I need to look at diving into the Horus Heresy boxed set to start on some more. Karl |
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 6, 2023 19:15:01 GMT
Never got in to RPG's either as I have always found it to be an impenetable world in another language I would need to learn. I see hundred odd page rule books and give up. I've never been in circles with beginners.
There's a huge barrier to entry for folk just curious. It also looks really expensive. I go in a hobby type shop, see the walls of stuff attached to RPG's and think: "nah". I looked into this kind of thing not long before Covid and it just seemed so intimidating that I gave up early!
People have often said to me to that they thought RPG's would be right up my street but it's a world I have never found a door to open for.
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Aug 6, 2023 19:28:52 GMT
As it stands I have now six tabletop ready miniatures,5 in mid flow and another 5 will now be started on. Cypher and his group of Fallen Dark Angels are ready. I've got roughly ten nearly table ready - 5 in Terminator Tactical Dreadnaught Armour, and 5 regular tactical marines. I've got another five tacs on the way, and another Terminator partly assembled (needs the Assault Cannon arm finished up and attached). Then I need to look at diving into the Horus Heresy boxed set to start on some more. Karl My plan is 5 Terminators, 5 other marines and back and forth and 1 character on the go at any time. 5 Assault Intercessors up on deck and I think a Librarian will be next. |
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Post by Pinwig on Aug 6, 2023 19:29:29 GMT
It does take time and I find these days I don't have the patience to learn the intricacies. Games Workshop did a cut down 'easy entry' version called Shadespire a few years ago that had everything in one box. I did buy that and tried to get into it, but even that was beyond me. I'll stick to Fighting Fantasy books, I can do those.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Aug 7, 2023 9:02:08 GMT
It's easier for the GW and tabletop warfare games if you have a club or the likes nearby. (Dunfermline has one, I founded it back in 1995 with two of my friends from school, we left it back in 2000 but it's in rude health. Now run by another friend of mine.) As if it's of a decent enough size you will generally find all levels of skill and knowledge, from other newbies, old hands, lapsed fans and that sort of thing, so you can find you can learn at your own pace if you fancy it.
Looking forward to going back as a punter in a few weeks time.
I do agree the GW/Warhammer store style set up can be a bit off putting, but it's no different than a civilian going into a comic shop. In this scenario, you just happen to be the civilian. You just have to hope whoever is running it is a good egg, and not just trying to ream you for as much cash as possible.
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Cullen
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Post by Cullen on Aug 21, 2023 21:25:10 GMT
I would also observe that the painting of wargaming miniatures is a hobby in itself - one that can exist alongside, or completely separate from the playing of games. For example, I purchase and paint Battletech miniatures. I don't currently play the game, and their is - to my knowledge - no Battletech playing community in this area to play against. But that doesn't stop me enjoying painting a Marauder IIC in a "parakeet inspired" jade green scheme, or a WHM-7K in the red livery of the Sword of Light regiments. The painting of the miniatures can be an end in itself. Karl I think in the end of my Warhammer collecting I only played the actual games to see my painted miniatures in action. One of the biggest things I loved about it was going playing against someone else and seeing how they'd painted their miniatures. Literally the same models can be painted in a thousand different ways and its really cool to see what other people do. And the stuff the top painters can do is insane. Loved pouring through the pages of White Dwarf for that. You just don't get that with pre-painted models. Although it admittedly it adds a pretty high bar to entry when you have to learn a completely new skill (which you'll probably be bad at initially). It really is a hobby. But ebay exists for those who just want some nice painted models. |
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Post by Cullen on Aug 21, 2023 21:31:50 GMT
Gonna need pics of your finished miniatures Andy!
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Nov 29, 2023 13:08:51 GMT
Progress has been slowed due to TFN/Inktober/illness, will hopefully have some tabletop ready terminators done by the weekend, to accompany Cypher and his five man Risen squad.
Another 5 Deathwing Terminators have arrived via Ebay.
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Post by legios on Nov 29, 2023 17:57:17 GMT
I've having to rethink my plans. Having assembled and been partway through painting a full squad of Scout Snipers, I have now obtained the new Spess Merine codex... And you can now only have two sniper rifles in a squad of ten...
So that's not only most of the squad retired, but necessitates rethinking the entire doctrine and composition of the force I was building...
Ta Gee Dubs. Ta for that.
Karl
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Nov 29, 2023 22:29:43 GMT
Or maybe get a few more Scout squads and do a Deep Strike army, with them and Deathwing. I know someone who did that back in the day. A couple of Ravenwing Landspeeders and a Dreadnought for heavy fire support. Proper right in your ass by turn 2.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Dec 25, 2023 19:55:44 GMT
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Post by legios on Dec 26, 2023 13:25:01 GMT
Or maybe get a few more Scout squads and do a Deep Strike army, with them and Deathwing. I know someone who did that back in the day. A couple of Ravenwing Landspeeders and a Dreadnought for heavy fire support. Proper right in your ass by turn 2. I've been considering doing something like that with Primaris - there are multiple squad types with Scout and/or infiltrator, bolster that with Deathwing, Suppressors and Aggressors and you've got a "Pathfinders/airborne" kind of thing. Thinking it could be the "Sons of Tara" second-generation successor chapter's "thing" - a sort of "by the time you see them they have been here for weeks, and they already know where to land the blow" sort of schtick. (Sons of Tara are going to be my Primaris Chapter derived from the geneseed of me first-born Storm Angels, and led by a handful of former Storm Angel's who have cross the Rubicon Primaris). Karl |
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Post by legios on Dec 26, 2023 13:28:14 GMT
Oh Yes! All over that! Good solid core of a First Company detachment there! Karl |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 17, 2024 15:01:32 GMT
Stripped a few Deathwing Knights and the Lion back to bare plastic, as I made a howling cunt of painting them.
Will be starting again after Minicon, fancy doing the Knights up like the Inner Circle Companions to differentiate them from the new Primaris ones. Make a nice hotch potch army of Primaris DA and Redeemed Firstborn.
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tomwe
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Post by tomwe on Jul 2, 2024 9:26:33 GMT
My son said the words Warhammer the other day. He's 10. So we broke out some old models and fudged some rules to play a couple of games based off Issue 1 of a Hachette magazine I had lying around. We also did some painting, which I think he was frustrated with. It doesn't help when I've 35yrs of experience on him. I tried encouraging the use of washes to get a quick, nice look, but the prospect of him having to make 'battle ready' a whole squad is intimidating. Luckily I have a stack of Orks, Eldar, Marines & Tyranids in a good state to begin with. Codex for Marines and Orks are on order  997 |
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tomwe
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Post by tomwe on Jul 3, 2024 15:22:03 GMT
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Post by Benn on Jul 3, 2024 16:43:45 GMT
Once again: I do not need to be getting into all this again...
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jul 3, 2024 21:41:36 GMT
You do...
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