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Post by The Doctor on Dec 12, 2023 20:26:57 GMT
Leela was special.
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 12, 2023 20:46:03 GMT
All the companions are special!
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 12, 2023 20:53:51 GMT
Listening to the excitable younglings on the official Who podcast, apparently in the commentary for The Giggle, RTD says that when this bigeneration happens, all the previous Doctors bigenerate too.
Which as the podcast points out, could explain the Curator, the Time Crash Fifth and all the TARDIS tales ones.
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 12, 2023 21:52:57 GMT
I tried that podcast but found it too fawning and overly performative. The points they make are directly knicked from that commentary.
-Ralph
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 12, 2023 21:54:30 GMT
You should watch The Giggle commentary. It's quite amusing.
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 12, 2023 22:45:04 GMT
I'll watch all of the commentaries over Christmas when I get time. I agree about the podcast, as said, I don't think fans of our ilk are the intended audience.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 13, 2023 5:58:37 GMT
Listening to the excitable younglings on the official Who podcast, apparently in the commentary for The Giggle, RTD says that when this bigeneration happens, all the previous Doctors bigenerate too. What, so we're really now on the 28th Doctor? Martin |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Dec 13, 2023 8:29:30 GMT
You can no longer believe your eyes.
Really can't see why the rare bi-regeneration of the latest Doctor would have to mean all the others did as well.
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 13, 2023 19:30:30 GMT
What, so we're really now on the 28th Doctor? Martin Chibbers gave us all manner of different Docs. I reckon we're into the 40s now. |
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 13, 2023 19:31:33 GMT
You can no longer believe your eyes. Really can't see why the rare bi-regeneration of the latest Doctor would have to mean all the others did as well. None of it makes any sense. I'm adopting the approach of smiling and nodding. |
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 13, 2023 19:57:58 GMT
Especially if you bring The Watcher and The Valeyard into it.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Dec 13, 2023 20:31:23 GMT
All of which is exactly why it should have been explained using the toymaker's Improbability bs, because timelord bs opens a Pandora's box of problems, where as the toymaker's bs pretty much both explains it and insures it's a one time deal.
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 13, 2023 21:10:14 GMT
*smiles and nods*
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Post by Llama God on Dec 14, 2023 14:19:16 GMT
Yes, I'm choosing to take the point of view that until we've seen it in the series, it's not happened. So as far as I'm concerned it's only 14 and 15 that bigenerated. Until proven otherwise.
I'm of several minds about the whole thing, and that's because of the role that regeneration plays not only in story, but in terms of real world production and for the actual viewer. There's always been a slightly traumatic factor to regeneration, and that's to do with the fact that it's your (current) favourite actor leaving the role - so acknowledging that in story terms, and then achieving some sort of catharsis in the new actor's first story is an important part of the process. Having the actor still kind of hanging around makes that feel a bit more weird.
People complain, for example, that Tennant's original (well, second) regeneration in The End of Time was a bit over the top, but that was also the end of an era - it was the end of the start of the return of Doctor Who, the end of RTD's (first) tenure, so celebrating and acknowledging that was kind of important. To me, anyway.
But the flip side is that I'm also saying that because this has been the way I've always watched Doctor Who. Maybe it'll be different to new viewers going forwards if a different approach is taken. Hard to say.
What I do like is that they didn't give Tennant that overblown deal this time, because this is the start of an era, not the end. The fact we actually got something really hopeful and positive is something that I like a lot. Which is why I say that in this instance the bigeneration thing works. As to anything else... well I guess we'll have to wait and see what future stories do.
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Post by Shockprowl on Dec 15, 2023 18:24:53 GMT
I've been thinking more and more that it was a cop-out, and diminishes the new guy.
But Llama's "hopeful and positive" has made me less grumpy-old-man about it. It is nice to have a little hope and positivity.
The splitting of the TARDIS was a bit shit though. I mean, it's a bloody super advanced spacetime ship! It can't just SPLIT IN TWO?!?! Madness. Bloody kids.
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Post by Llama God on Dec 16, 2023 9:34:42 GMT
Ah, that's because the Toymaker's magic was still lingering. So... er... magic. Innit? I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of that as we go forwards. The rules of reality will have been rewritten, or some such...
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 16, 2023 10:07:17 GMT
The circumstances around the bi-generation really make it very easy to now bring forth The Valeyard. Come on, Rusty T!!!
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 16, 2023 11:55:47 GMT
I knew nothing of the Toymaker before last Saturday, but I've concluded he's something in between Q from Star Trek and Mister Mxyzptlk.
Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 16, 2023 12:16:19 GMT
The surviving episode from his first story (THE FINAL TEST) can be found on the Iplayer.
-Ralph
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Post by legios on Dec 16, 2023 12:42:11 GMT
Yes, I'm choosing to take the point of view that until we've seen it in the series, it's not happened. So as far as I'm concerned it's only 14 and 15 that bigenerated. Until proven otherwise. Indeed. Until something happens within the frame of the story (or is told us by someone established to be impartial and reliable...so basically no-one in Doctor Who then :-) )anything we think we know is inference and hearsay. A writer can proceed on the basis that something is true but until they actually lay out something as true within the framework of the story then this can be revised and altered without being a change to the text. Like the fact that at the time of early Doctor Who, Doctor Who and Susan were refugees from an invasion of their home and unable to return because it had been occupied by an alien force. That was the view of the background document for the show initially, but by the time we actually saw Doctor Who's home planet it was in fact the home of aloof spacegods whom he'd left because he was bored. But that isn't a change of his background within the frame of his fiction - because the "refugee from an invasion" story had never been provably true within the text. Clearly the "all Doctor Whos are now completely separated characters who just spawn off a new Doctor Who and don't die" is Russell T Davies idea of how it should be. But that is an idea from outside the text. It is something the writer did not put into it, and so it is up to the "reader" whether or not it shapes their view of the text. Personally I don't like it. I'm very comfortable with the idea that each Doctor Who eventually will pass away, and pass something of who they have been onto their successor. I think there is an inspiring lesson that can be drawn from that - in the end we are the legacy we pass on to others, the example we set and the lessons that they take from us. The Doctor is that made literal. But then, I like the protagonists of my stories to be mortal, to have a definite end point. Like Arthur eventually falls at Badon fighting...whomever he fights in a given version. The Grey Death Legion are torn apart by Clan Jade Falcon and Word of Blake until eventually nothing remains. Endings matter, and to suddenly take away a character(s) ending feels to me like it diminishes them. (I would prefer it if every generation had a new Batman, if the original X-Men were retired or teaching and new heroes were the leads of their comics, or Miles Morales was Spider-Man and Peter Parker a man who was Spider-Man and rests happy knowing that he made a difference.) Karl |
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Post by legios on Dec 16, 2023 12:45:06 GMT
Of course, with Doctor Who having established with the Timeless Child and Alien Bodies that there can be universes inside each other, and that you can travel into a universe from outside it my approach to Doctor Who "canon" has become entirely chaotic, and predicated on the idea that "it's bottles all the way down, and I'm not sure which story belongs in which bottle". So they literally can't break the "canon" as far as I am concerned - it is already an unsorted pile of shards and I just enjoy each story on its own merits.
Karl
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 16, 2023 13:35:02 GMT
I'm very comfortable with the idea that each Doctor Who eventually will pass away, and pass something of who they have been onto their successor. The trouble is, "eventually" happens every couple of years, so often that it ceases to be an "event" with any impact. I loved what they did last week (and indeed at the end of the 13th Doctor's run) because it broke the predictability of what everyone thought they knew always must happen when Doctor Who changes lead actor. Now _anything_ can happen at the end of an actor's run. I hope that what happens at the end of the 15th Doctor's run will wrong-foot the viewer as much as last week's episode did. Martin |
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Post by legios on Dec 16, 2023 15:35:58 GMT
The splitting of the TARDIS was a bit shit though. I mean, it's a bloody super advanced spacetime ship! It can't just SPLIT IN TWO?!?! Madness. Bloody kids. Ah, but it didn't just split in two though. The Ncuti Doctor had to take a sledgehammer and smack a new T.A.R.D.I.S out of the old T.A.R.D.I.S. Loony Toons physics. :-) Karl |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 16, 2023 15:58:38 GMT
The splitting of the TARDIS was a bit shit though. I mean, it's a bloody super advanced spacetime ship! It can't just SPLIT IN TWO?!?! I think you're getting things that aren't bloody super advanced spacetime ships mixed up with things that are. Your house can't just split in two. Your ambulance can't just split in two. For exactly the reason that they _aren't_ bloody super advanced spacetime ships. Martin |
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 16, 2023 16:06:59 GMT
Ah, that's because the Toymaker's magic was still lingering. So... er... magic. Innit? I think we're going to be seeing a lot more of that as we go forwards. The rules of reality will have been rewritten, or some such... Yes, the Fifteenth said it was his prize for beating the Toymaker. |
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Post by Pinwig on Dec 16, 2023 16:10:03 GMT
The Fourteenth's last/not last words 'It's time' were predictable I thought, but in this situation entirely rubbish. How was it time? He was in the middle of a battle with a god-like entity intent on wreaking havoc on Earth. Being shot to death in the middle of that battle is in no way 'time' to go.
A morose, self-indulgent lip-wobbling 'it's time' in the wake of resolving why 'this face' came back, yes, but not before you've actually beaten the bad guy.
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Post by The Doctor on Dec 16, 2023 16:39:47 GMT
The last/not last words were just after that were he said: "Allonsy."
Also: "It's time" coule mean nothing more than 'this body is mortally wounded so it is time for it to go'.
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Dec 16, 2023 17:01:03 GMT
The Fourteenth's last/not last words 'It's time' were predictable I thought, but in this situation entirely rubbish. How was it time? He was in the middle of a battle with a god-like entity intent on wreaking havoc on Earth. Being shot to death in the middle of that battle is in no way 'time' to go. A morose, self-indulgent lip-wobbling 'it's time' in the wake of resolving why 'this face' came back, yes, but not before you've actually beaten the bad guy. I'd agree with you if he actually thought he was dying, but if he figured he needed to regenerate in order to beat the bad guy (which, as it turned out, he did), then he was right, it was time. Martin |
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Post by Llama God on Dec 17, 2023 8:55:04 GMT
I'm very comfortable with the idea that each Doctor Who eventually will pass away, and pass something of who they have been onto their successor. The trouble is, "eventually" happens every couple of years, so often that it ceases to be an "event" with any impact. I loved what they did last week (and indeed at the end of the 13th Doctor's run) because it broke the predictability of what everyone thought they knew always must happen when Doctor Who changes lead actor. Now _anything_ can happen at the end of an actor's run. I hope that what happens at the end of the 15th Doctor's run will wrong-foot the viewer as much as last week's episode did. That's the main thing I'm hoping for most times I watch anything. If I can predict what's going to happen then it's a not a very good story - because I don't have a very good imagination. So something else different for the next one would also be welcome. Maybe. Depending on what it is. Although a traditional regeneration with a good story and good writing would also be fine. So many options! I guess we'll find out in 2026. (I'm assuming.) |
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Post by legios on Dec 17, 2023 16:01:19 GMT
The splitting of the TARDIS was a bit shit though. I mean, it's a bloody super advanced spacetime ship! It can't just SPLIT IN TWO?!?! I think you're getting things that aren't bloody super advanced spacetime ships mixed up with things that are. Your house can't just split in two. Your ambulance can't just split in two. For exactly the reason that they _aren't_ bloody super advanced spacetime ships. Martin The question is how can one tell - if one isn't the person living there I mean. The camera angle I use for Zoom calls is very carefully selected after all...who can tell what is just out of the field of view of the lens... :-) Karl |
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