US Presidential Race 2008

[dyrl]

I read the interview, and she made it clear that she was quoting Lincoln - who noted that he wanted people to pray that they would always be on the side of God rather than that God be on their side.

In other words - she was criticizing those who try to say that God is on "our" side - especially in the case of war.

She also sounds like she doesn't know anything about foreign affairs and like she cares more about domestic issues - and good.

It would be nice to have a President who finally stopped trying to run an empire and just took care of maintaining a republic. If we can't have her as President now, then make her VP.

Judging by that interview - she would be a great person to have as a VP, hopefully talking some sense into McCain and the warmongers.

By the by - Joe Biden is also a war-monger; and a fundamentalist one at that (he called himself a Zionist on Israeli TV).

Obama seems pretty fired up to go to war in Pakistan and to expand the war in Afghanistan.

Out of the four of them - THREE have war-monger records:

Joe Biden
John McCain
Barack Obama

All of them have to one extent or another voted for measures that advanced the cause of war mongering.

Sarah Palin HASN'T.

That she parrots McCain's Foregin Policy line is to be expected - what is to be hoped is that in her heart she is a republican and not an Imperialist.

In any event, Palin has in the past praised Ron Paul, expressed sympathies with Alaskan independence movements - in short - she doesn't sound like a global war monger.

She sounds like a small town mom who got involved i the PTA and made it to governor. More hope that such a person will have more common sense than the three other guys.


Pete

[championofjustice]

I love how you equate Zionism with extremism BTW. That's rather shocking ignorance, or just old fashioned Christian anti-semitic bigotry.

[dyrl]

How is it anti-semetic bigoty to point out that Zionism is a form of relgiious fundamentalism and that you cannot criticize Sarah Palin for being a Christian Fundamentalist while ignoring that Joe Biden called himself a Zionist?

The idea that Israel as a nation should be purely based on the Jewish religion; aka that religious affiliation should be the basis of citizenship, is religious fundamentalism and that is the idea of Zionism. It is religious fundamentalism...because it is a political philosphy that sees the foundation of the political realm in the religious realm... aka - religious fundamentalism... how is pointing this out anti-semetic?

I understand that since the majority of nation-states are based on national, cultural, or historical idendity, then the Jewish people have the supposed right to also have their own state based only on this criteria in accordance with the principle of the right to self-determination of all nations.

But - the United States of America are not based on these criteria because a "nation" is ultimately a historical entity and the USA is based on an understanding of the Nature of Man rather than on any point in his history - they are based on the idea that all people are created equal with inalienable rights - irrespective of nation, religion etc etc.

In my opinion, this is a better foundation for a state than nationalism or religion. Better because if you have the foundation of your state in a religion, you are asking for conflict since religious opinons are, in the final analysis, not totally open to rational deliberation. If the foundation of your state is natural rights, which are universal and all people share and understand them equally, then you can have people of different faiths, backgrounds and the like living together in peace. Everyone will be able to pick their own religion, worship in the church of their choice or not at all, as long as they respect the equal rights of others. This is, by the by, also the general basis for the European Union, which seeks (in theory) to protect universal human rights and not the rights of a particular religious sect. Religion can of course, inspire universal rights - but no particular religion should ever be the political foundation for universal rights. Whether you should worship Buddha, Allah, Jesus or Skippy the Monkey should be nobody else's business but yours.

In this sense - I don't like an American politician, an American sentor, saying that he is a Zionist - and it's not because I'm anti-semetic, but for the same reason that I wouldn't like it if an American politician announced that he supported the imposition of Sharia law, or the imposition of the 10 Commandments by law - because I am against imposing religions on people against their will.

Zionism as a political philosophy does this. It has little to do with supporting Israel - one can support the right of Israel to exist without being a Zionist. Do you need to be a Christian fundamentalist to support the right of the US to exist? No. So, Joe Biden should show some sense and not call himself a Zionist; and if he is indeed one - then I respectfully disagree with him on that.

In fact- if Israel actually did go the Zionist route - then it would, in my opinion, be a mistake for the people of Israel as well. There are non-Jewish citizens of Israel - Palestitians - and are they to have no rights under a Zionist Israel - must they convert to Judaism or leave?

It would be good if the best and noblest elements of Judaism inspired Israel towards a humane policy towards all people, irrespective of religion. It would be great if the Jewish State could also incorporate non-Jews and accept the reality that in our everyday lives it is possible to live with people from different countries and cultures.

I never said Zionism is "extremist" - because a term like "extremism" is rather vague; one has to wonder "extreme in relation to what?"

I did however equate Zionism with Christian Fundamentalism insofar as both of them interpret reality on the basis of a very narrow set of religious beliefs and interpretations of religious texts.

I find it frankly retarded to be immediately categorized as an anti-semetic bigot for merely pointing out that Zionism is also a form of religious fundamentalism by someone who doesn't hesistate to nod in agreement to calling Sarah Palin backwards, inbred etc etc solely on the basis of her coming from a small town Christian background.

Any chance you might try to attack the actual argument or opinion, or are you only capable of calling people you disagree with bigots while at the same time holding bigoted views about Christian Fundamentalists?

Every time I think about voting for a Democrat, it takes listening to a couple of them to make me run back to the Republicans...

At least when I talk to Republicans and say "McCain/Palin stinks because a, b, c, d, e , f and g" the Republicans say "yeah...that does stink...we're also sad about it and we also have our own list of things we don't like..."

Whenever I talk to Democrats and say "what bothers me about Obama/Biden is a, b, c e and so forth" I hear "what!? You're a bigot racist warmonger!"

This is why Democrats keep loosing ellections. They seem to be the most closed minded types around and you can never have a conversation about anything without hearing that you're either

a) ignorant

b) a bigot

Pete

[Fortmax2020]

All of them have to one extent or another voted for measures that advanced the cause of war mongering.

Sarah Palin HASN'T.

Is that evidence of her lack of experience...?

[dyrl]

Quote: Is that evidence of her lack of experience...?

Yes

I believe that people who lack experience in conducting mass warfare are possibly better candidates that those with years of experience in the field.

This is why the "Obama has no experience" argument is bad, and this is also why the "Palin has no experience" argument is bad.

Besides - in a democracy, anybody can be President if they can convince people to endorse their ideas. "Experience" is not necessarily a virtue. The "I have experience" argument never really held much weight in my book; and I think it would actually be dangerous for democracy if the majority of people ever started valuing experience too much - as if the experience of "being in power" was somehow something that gave access to divine wisdom... it isn't - if anything, it has the opposite tendency.

Pete

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Sept 12, 2008 15:23:49 GMT dyrl said:

I find it frankly retarded

Heated debate good, and points for in-depth argument, but it's a long haul to the election so please try to avoid language like this, Pete - and all the 'inbred'-type generalisations, everyone - or we'll never make it to the finishing line.

Attack the candidates, guys, not each other or specific demographics.

*dings bell for round two to commence*

Cheers

Martin

[karla]

I hope Palin gets through I like her!

[chrisl]

The truth about McCain:



(watch the very end bit)

[dyrl]

Now that's funny.

Pete

[Andy Turnbull]

Well the first round of debates are over, I don't know if anyone watched or read any of the transcripts. It looked like Obama came off pretty well and Sarah Biden despite some cack-handed moments managed to improve her position. Shame she has decided to descend into the oh-so typical smear attacks that have been far too prevalent in the Republican election campaigns in recent years.

Andy

[Mark_Stevenson]

Oct 7, 2008 9:26:15 GMT Andy Turnbull said:

Shame she has decided to descend into the oh-so typical smear attacks that have been far too prevalent in the Republican election campaigns in recent years.

Well, unfortunately that's to be expected, especially now the wheels have started to come off Granpa and the Witch's campaign wagon. When the campaign bosses themselves admit that if they actually TALK ABOUT THE ISSUES (shock horror) then they're going to lose, this kind of tedious bun-fight is inevitable. Right-wing media hawks (even on some fairly 'respectable' networks) have made some pretty ludicrous claims lately - everything from claiming Obama has 'terrorist sympathies' (which to my ears has a similar connotation to 'Communist sympathies' from the McCarthy era - a convenient 'tar-all' brush to apply to anyone whose first response isn't to reach for the big red button) to implying that he's a closet Muslim (!) and in the pocket of the Kenyan government (er, what?).

Meanwhile, Obama appears by most indicators to be widening his (infuriatingly narrow) lead, although the killer blow has yet to be struck. One can only hope it comes soon...

Mx

(Partisan? Moi?)

[legios]

Oct 7, 2008 19:26:03 GMT Mark_Stevenson said:

Right-wing media hawks (even on some fairly 'respectable' networks) have made some pretty ludicrous claims lately - everything from claiming Obama has 'terrorist sympathies' (which to my ears has a similar connotation to 'Communist sympathies' from the McCarthy era - a convenient 'tar-all' brush to apply to anyone whose first response isn't to reach for the big red button)

That does indeed sound a little odd when you put it out into the light. The way they are spinning it is "Obama is in league with America's enemies who we are fighting in Iraqistan", but if you actually look at what they are actually referring to it looks a lot different. Apparently what they are actually talking about is that he at one stage had a social connection to someone who had connections to the Weather Underground - militant anti-vietnam protesters.

It does appear that they are taking one thing and turning it into something rather different. But then the more I look at the current Presidential campaign the less far-fetched bits of Neal Stephenson and Frederick George's book "Interface" seems to me. (Not the remote controlled Presidential candidate bit, but some of the political gamesmanship that goes on in the book). There are days I wouldn't be surprised if McCain's chief strategist wasn't revealed to be Jeremiah Freel, foaming and the mouth and all.

Karl

[dyrl]

Well - what frustrates me the most with regard to things like "Obama has ties to Bill Ayers" is just how indicative this kind of stuff is of the American publica's general unwillingness to contemplate its' own history.

It's hard to disagree with Bill Ayer's assertion that he spent 500 USD to bomb a couple of government buildings with ZERO human casualties while the Pentagon spent billions of taxpayer dollers to rain death on women and children in Vietnam.

It's further hard not to notice that John McCain was a pilot who rained death on women and children in Vietnamk, but Obama gets the bum wrap for associating with Bill Ayers who did what he did when Obama was 8.

I don't understand why Americans can't just talk about this stuff. Isn't it possible to condem Bill Ayer's for his hair brained idea of bombing buildings while also AGREEING that there is something to be said for moral outrage against bombing civilians by the US Air Force ?

And can't we carry that over to what is happening in Iraq?

The answer is - of course - NO.

Because Americans are by and large utter stupid twits. This is also why Ron Paul, who was trying to defend the old Republican party policy of non-intervention was booed and condemned as a traitor by Rudy Giulliani during the primaries...

If you want an explanation for how American politics works, I think going to Borat - particularly that bit in the Rodio which goes from the crowd loving him ("I support your war of terror!") to hating him ("Kazahstan is the greatest country in the world") on the basis of essentially meaningless and wrong headed thoughtless platitudes.

But ultimately - what is happening just convinces me that democracy doesn't work and its' only benefit is that it openly potrary just how stupid The People are - and subsequently how silly their mirror images are.

I personally wish Obama would bring Bill Ayers to an event with John McCain and say:

"Dude- this is Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers did some stupid stuff when he was a kid. He planted bombs near some buildings. Kind of like you, John, helped drop bombs on people when you were young and stupid. I'm Barak Obama; I'm also young - but what I learned from these two older men is that dropping bombs on innocent people to prove your political point is not a good idea and I'm going to work for world peace and reconciliation."

Instead - Obama severs ties and pretends he doesn't hold liberal views because that's the only way to win the election...

It's sad.

Pete

[The Doctor]

I'm finding the BBC site useful for tracking events at a glance:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/americas/2008/vote_usa_2008/default.stm

7 days to go! I'll be up late following results as they come in.

-Ralph

[The Doctor]

Right, I've got cake, ginger ale, sour cream dip and an ale if Obama wins. Just need to pick up some dipping chips and pepsi tomorrow and I'm all set for the election marathon.

-Ralph

[Andy Turnbull]

Looking forward to Electionmania!

Andy

[legios]

You know, this would be one election I would actually sit up and follow, were it not for the fact that I have to be at work the next day - and the organisation I work for is too small for me to afford to be only bodily present. Curses. Oh well, I'd only spend the night on tenterhooks anyway.

Karl

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Martin

[The Doctor]

My election vigil has begun.

Sarah Palin is now casting her vote and currently talking complete and utterly gibberish.

BBC News 24 live streaming:
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/playlive/bbc_news24/

Live text commentary:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7700298.stm

Guide to Election Night:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/us_elections_2008/7705795.stm

Excitingly, a 'constantly updated live election map' goes live on the Beeb main site from midnight!

-Ralph

[Andy Turnbull]

Sarah Palin really is an absolute idiot. Stupid people in positions of power scare me. Hopefully tonight things will go the way that pretty much the entire world is hoping for and Obama gets in.

Andy

[The Doctor]

I'm rooting for Obama. A bit inexperienced for the job but the most progressive candidate to come down the pike in quite some time, with enormous potential.

Come on, America!!!

-Ralph

[Mark_Stevenson]

I, too, am rooting for Barry O.


Mx

[Deleted]

I'd love to stay up to watch it but I've got a 6am start in the morning so can't. I'll catch up with it in the morning.

[The Doctor]

From the BBC text commentary:

'1956 Media mogul Rupert Murdoch says he fears Mr Obama, if elected, will take the US in a "different and dangerous direction", by encouraging more economic protectionism.'

-Ralph

[legios]

Nov 4, 2008 20:22:52 GMT The Doctor said:

From the BBC text commentary:

'1956 Media mogul Rupert Murdoch says he fears Mr Obama, if elected, will take the US in a "different and dangerous direction", by encouraging more economic protectionism.'

-Ralph

Hmmm. There is that possibility. Some of the things Obama has said on the campaign trail did suggest slight protectionist leanings. Mind you, I don't know that McCain wouldn't do the same thing - a lot of his rhetoric has been very "American self-sufficiency".

What caught my attention was Channel 4 News' report that Karl Rove (one of Bush Jnrs campaign strategists) had said that he was expecting a Democratic Landslide. When one of the most ubiquitous Republican political operators says "game over for our guy" that has to give one pause for thought.

Who knows, by this time next year the President-elect, and the arbiter of British foreign policy might well be an African-American for the first time in history. Whatever one feels about his politics that in itself would represent a sea change in American affairs.

Karl

[karla]

I don't want to know the outcome, I always think the worst!

[Hero]

McCain RULES!

[karla]

when will we know the results?

[The Doctor]

2am here, at the very earliest. More likely to be a few hours after that.

From the Beeb commentary:

'22:24: BBC North America editor Justin Webb: You have to hand it to California Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger - he has become a politician of real consequence and heft: humourous and forceful. This from him: "I think the polls are looking very good for McCain. You know there is a 50% in the latest polls, 50-50, I mean that's in our own house. And then there are very good poll numbers coming out - I mean that's 100% of the vote, McCain - that's amongst Austrian-born body-builders! So there's all kinds of great action going on, so I feel very optimistic!" '

-Ralph

[karla]

eeesh, not staying up that late.

lol! yay arnie!! I wish I knew an Austrian body-builder