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Post by Toph on Oct 8, 2015 17:03:25 GMT
Several Constitution class ships were seen in the original series. The Enterprise is just one of them. -Ralph I know. And that's part of my point. I'm not saying the Contitution is a terrible ship. I'm saying that paramount's refusal to use it for anything past the Enterprise-A, when ships like the oberth (which given the grissem's low registry number means it's a contemporary to the daedalus) are still up and running by the end of DS9/Voyager, combined with the movies constantly stressing how the Enterprise is at the end of her road, makes it seem like what's supposed to be the best class in the fleet is terrible. |
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Post by blueshift on Oct 8, 2015 17:50:30 GMT
And then they spent V and VI talking about how wrecked and spent it was, and how passed it's prime it was. It was a metaphor for the crew, innit |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Oct 8, 2015 17:50:31 GMT
They did?
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Post by Toph on Oct 8, 2015 18:17:21 GMT
And then they spent V and VI talking about how wrecked and spent it was, and how passed it's prime it was. It was a metaphor for the crew, innit Metaphors aren't canon events, and doesn't adress, or do anything to change the points that I made. |
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 8, 2015 19:13:39 GMT
If a metaphor is part of a storyline and the storyline is 'canon' then, er, yes it happened.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Oct 8, 2015 21:11:42 GMT
When the ship is literally falling apart in one movie (v), and internally restyled to look old, cramped, and outdated in the next along with them talking about that it's about to be decomissioned (vi), it's not really a metaphor.
And that's beside the point, anyway.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Oct 8, 2015 21:14:49 GMT
It wasn't falling apart in V. In V they are working out all the kinks in it from being a new ship at the end of IV. It's called snagging.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Oct 8, 2015 21:16:37 GMT
It's old in 2 and falling apart in 3 post Kahn battle.
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 8, 2015 21:46:01 GMT
The ship in VI was not restyled to look old/ crap. It was just rejigged a bit to fit with that director's take on Trek ie it's a naval ship in space ie having bunk beds and the like. Nick Meyer discusses it in his autobiography.
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Oct 9, 2015 5:52:34 GMT
When the ship is literally falling apart in one movie (v), and internally restyled to look old, cramped, and outdated in the next along with them talking about that it's about to be decomissioned (vi) As others have said, it was new in V and not fully operational yet. In VI, I thought it was the crew, not the ship, that was being retired/decommissioned, though after all the holes Chang blew in it, I suppose the ship could have been written off. What _I_ hated was the way the Enterprise-D went from being a lovely bright, nice place to live in the TV series to a dark and scary place in Generations. Who turned out all the lights??? Martin |
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 9, 2015 7:51:07 GMT
There is even a scene where Riker goes to leave Picard's ready room to go the Bridge which is in complete darkness!
-Ralph
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Post by legios on Oct 9, 2015 20:22:17 GMT
It wasn't falling apart in V. In V they are working out all the kinks in it from being a new ship at the end of IV. It's called snagging. I've never been entirely sure if it is an entirely new hull, or if they have rechristened another hull that has been through the same refit process as the Enterprise did before TMP. (Which pretty much seems to be a "strip-back to the keel and rebuild" anyway, so would include "zeroing" its spaceframe life). But I never got the sense of it being "old and tired). More that in V it was suffering from the inevitable problems of trying to refit a last generation hull with an entirely new generation of technology - i.e huge numbers of bugs. In VI, as folk have observed the cosmetic redesign was very much "naval vessel", as it was for STII (not-coincidentally by the same director), but I never got any real sense of the ship itself being behind the curve. And I don't actually recall whether anything specific was said about decommissioning the ship or whether it was expressed as "decommissioning us", a poetic phrase for putting its command crew out to pasture. Even if they were, I'd be inclined go suspect it was because they'd just reached the point where it was just too much trouble to refit the Connie Hulls. Navies don't just retire things because they are old. Some times things go because of percieved changes in mission, internal politics and a lot of other reasons. Given that was swiftly replaced by a second- (or Third) block Excelsior class vessel I suspect that they were pulling all the Connies and replacing them with Excelsiors for purposes of fleet commonality. After all, the Federation has the resources of entire star systems to play with, so at that point it becomes a case of "eh, build another twenty or thirty Excelsiors, make things easy on the Logistics guys". The Oberths however, probably weren't getting upgraded anywhere near as often - what we've seen of the, make them look far from front-line units, and as long as they could trundle along doing their surveys and routine science work or whatever they were probably left to get on with it and everyones mental energy was focused on the line-of-battle assets. (I can imagine the Oberth crews forming a sort of equivalent of the USN's self-styled "Gator Navy", very proud of the fact that they've chosen to serve somewhere the rest of the service try very, very hard to avoid going to :-) ). I suspect that they probably ended up suffering the same fate as many of the Miranda class hulls did in later decades - stripped back and serving in transport and utility roles. Karl |
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Post by legios on Oct 9, 2015 20:29:09 GMT
There is even a scene where Riker goes to leave Picard's ready room to go the Bridge which is in complete darkness! -Ralph Yes, they did seem to be having issues with the power grid there didn't they? Although, it is a little bit of a piece with the Galaxy class's apparent issue with "walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time". It always reminded me of playing the Star Fleet Battles game and using the old Federation Destroyer - you can move at a sensible speed or charge full yield torpedoes. But you ain't doing both at the same time. :-) Karl |
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Post by blueshift on Oct 9, 2015 20:35:58 GMT
What _I_ hated was the way the Enterprise-D went from being a lovely bright, nice place to live in the TV series to a dark and scary place in Generations. Who turned out all the lights??? I have a feeling that's to do with the tv sets not being up to scratch as movie sets, so they changed the lighting to hide any defects. That said, didn't they reuse some TNG sets for ST VI? |
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Post by legios on Oct 9, 2015 21:05:53 GMT
They did, but I believe that they were set elements which had been built for a previous Star Trek movie (they'd gone into prop storage and then been brought out for use by the TV series as a cost saving measure). I want to say that it was wall elements they'd used for either the Enterprise Battle Bridge or one of the Guest Bridges, but I'm not 100% certain of that.
Karl
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Post by Toph on Oct 9, 2015 22:08:20 GMT
What _I_ hated was the way the Enterprise-D went from being a lovely bright, nice place to live in the TV series to a dark and scary place in Generations. Who turned out all the lights??? I have a feeling that's to do with the tv sets not being up to scratch as movie sets, so they changed the lighting to hide any defects. That said, didn't they reuse some TNG sets for ST VI? Actually from the moment TNG launched, they started reusing sets actoss the board. The corridors were shared between TNG, V, and VI. They barely even changed things (many signs are the same) in V. Sickbay was reused for other sets. The conference lounge was used for both the A's observation lounge where they had the steering wheel in V, as well as the officer's mess in VI. The Engineering set was used as V & VI's engineering. They built a new Enterprise bridge for the A because the one used in 1-3 had been destroyed. The A's bridge was reused for the Excelsior's bridge, the B's bridge, the C's bridge, the D's Battlebridge, the Stargazer's bridge, the Prometheus's bridge, and just about every single alien bridge there ever was. Pretty much every TNG set except the bridge contributed something to the final two TOS movies. And any surviving TOS or TOS movie set contributed to TNG and beyond. Supposedly there are noticable changes in TNG season five onward from where sets were irreversibly altered for VI. |
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Post by Toph on Oct 11, 2015 6:20:36 GMT
Rewatching the reboot movies, and it's sad how many of the really huge problems could be massively reduced with only a tiny bit of additional exposition.
The cast are so great that it's mindblowing how perfect they are (eggs benedict being the only exception). They take two really basic and fairly weak plots and make the movies somethibg fun to watch. It's such a shame we only get to see them in brainless blockbuster mode, and not in character exploration mode.
After rewatching most of TOS, I find I don't mind the funky nonsensical pseudo-science of the red matter, or the single volcano threatening to destroy a planet that's frozen by detonating a "cold fusion" bomb. (That could have been easily fixed by calling it a cryo-fusion bomb, since cryo-fusion isn't an actual thing)
Because TOS was nothing but wacky plot devices exactly like that. Trek didn't start stabilizing into consistant terms and tech until the movies. And even then it was TNG that really started to set firm rules for in-universe physics.
So honestly those things kinda mesh pretty well with the source material, if not the material that emerged twenty years later.
The other really big issues are simply warp speed. Getting from earth to kronos, having a big battle there, then another big battle with a starship, then back to earth within a day (although scotty was probably exaggerating to be incredulous, but it's still the only timeframe we're given) just breaks suspension of disbelief. The trip from earth to vulcan, and back again being almost as bad.
And this really could be fixed by using the exact same trick that all other Treks used before it. The Captain's Log, in order to add a bit of exposition, and explain time jumps. Why we're suddenly 18 hours or 18 days later.
Add to this another way to set the reboot apart from prime.
We know several things about the reboot universe were kicked off because a five mile long "super advanced" romulan ship popped out of literally nowhere and started wrecking havoc all over the place. This being potentially the reason why the Enterprise is so much bigger/more powerful/more capable (Honestly, this is a non-issue to me)
One thing we know from Prime is that the Excelsior was to be the great experiment. Her Transwarp Drive was to be revolutionary, but because Scotty sabotaged it, we never learn if it would have worked.
This could easily have been incorporated in the reboot. That the Narada being able to seemingly appear anywhere at any time (from their perspective, not knowing it was inadvertently time jumping), Starfleet could have fast tracked their Transwarp experiments, and outfitted most/all major ships with it.
Maybe this isn't even explainable in the movies, but they could have written it into the production bible so supplemental materials could use it.
The final problem most people seem to have is a cadet who's not even graduated yet, given permanent command of Starfleet's flagship.
In the first movie this really isn't *that* big a deal as crisis situation combined with "getting everyone where they iconically belong for story purpose."
But after that Cadet Kirk is still immediately given full command, and the second movie picks up a few offscreen adventures later.
And again, with even slightly better exposition from the writers, this too could have been fixed. With a bit of a snippet from Pike mentioning Kirk had done a five year tour on the Farragut to be groomed to captain the Enterprise, but in the year he's had it, blah blah blah.
It just irritates me how easily it would have been to vastly improve the movies, with only the tiniest bit of thought, and the tiniest belief that your audiance isn't full of complete idiots.
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 11, 2015 11:18:29 GMT
Indeed.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Oct 12, 2015 5:22:12 GMT
I just saw official star charts, that plot the courses taken in all ten prime movies.
You know what? Vulcan is only 16 light years from earth. Qo'nos and the romulan neutral zone aren't terribly that much further.
Ceti Alpha V and the Genesis Planet are 300 light years away. Kirk made that trip from earth in the crippled Enterprise, in hours. And the trip from there to Vulcan, also in hours. In the old warp scale.
Reboot Trek has never once stated which Warp Scale they use, and in TNG scale at warp 9.99 (slower than top speed of the E), it would only take 15 hours to get from earth to Vulcan.
You know what? The reboot timeframe no longer bothers me that much anymore. No one questioned taking hours to get across 300 light years in the prime movies. But it's actually far more reasonable a journey in the reboot.
Also, Qo'nos again isn't that much further out.
I'm letting this one go.
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Post by Toph on Oct 17, 2015 2:28:29 GMT
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Post by Bogatan on Oct 17, 2015 15:42:50 GMT
What _I_ hated was the way the Enterprise-D went from being a lovely bright, nice place to live in the TV series to a dark and scary place in Generations. Who turned out all the lights??? I have a feeling that's to do with the tv sets not being up to scratch as movie sets, so they changed the lighting to hide any defects. That said, didn't they reuse some TNG sets for ST VI? I thik it was more to do with them not liking the lighting on the series. At least after Yesterdays Enterprise everyone behind the scenes wanted to go darker with mood lighting, but it would have been a odd change for hte audience during the shows run. Also just would have been out of place on netwrok TV at the time. Though I think they tried to push it as far as they could when they started DS9. |
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Post by Bogatan on Oct 17, 2015 16:09:40 GMT
I been thinking a lot about ships lately, as I've been aquiring and watching the TOS era (show and movies) on bluray. They did a really lousy job of making the Constitution-class seem like the supership it's ment to be. When you watch the next gen era, through the end of DS9, Voyager, and even up through Nemesis... All the ship classes that were active during the time that the Constitution reigned supreme... Even the ones that were decades older like the Oberth-class, still formed the backbone of Starfleet. Still fought in major galaxy shaping battles. Even the Excelsior herself was mentioned multiple times in fleet statistics. Now, I know that behind the scenes, they had their policy that a Hero ship is not to be used, until it's not a star anymore. This is why we never saw Galaxies until after Generations. And why we never saw the Sovereign or Intrepid classes. But this, in combination with the fact that the movies seemed almost dedicated to making us know the Enterprise is run down and constantly at risk of being decommissioned, just makes it seem like the Constitution (and not the Excelsior) is the great failed experiment. I kinda feel like this is a great disservice to the most iconic design in the franchise. Or the Constitution class being the deep space explorers and first line of defence had a high casualty rate. As the most advanced vessels they also were likely more expensive to build so there were fewer of them than other classes to start with. Once the Excelsior class came along and replaced them the survivors would have continued for however long, but having being superceded as deep space and military vessels wouldnt have been worth the effort of updating for that purpose and not worth the cost of repurposing for other roles so end up decomissioned sooner than other classes such as science and research which as Karl said could have remained perfectly serviceable (at minimal expense) for much longer. Why the Excelsior class would remain in service for so much longer might be a valid question though its probably just a case of the designers learning their lessons and making hte new ship easier to update or being so far ahead of their time they remained unsurpassed for far longer, right up till the Enterprise C time. They were in operation for at least 30 years (from TOS to VI) and who knows how much longer they remained active. Or it turns out the Constitution ships were not the super ships they were designed to be, making Kirk and crews accomplishments all the more impressive (and explaining the Excelsior coming hot on its heels, if it did. I think thats how I have percieved it, but havent given it a lot of thought). |
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Post by Toph on Oct 17, 2015 18:53:58 GMT
They were in operation for at least 30 years (from TOS to VI) and who knows how much longer they remained active. The Enterprise was launched the same year Pavel Chekov was born. It was already 20+ years by the first season of TNG. So, however old Chekov was in the various movies, is how old the enterprise is. And given she's the second ship in her class, the entire class is likely the same age, if not only a year or two older. |
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 3, 2015 18:09:41 GMT
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Post by Shockprowl on Nov 3, 2015 20:59:35 GMT
Oh damn it! I remember his character fondly from my childhood. Always wanted more of O'Reilly.
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 17, 2015 13:03:47 GMT
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Post by Toph on Nov 17, 2015 13:38:12 GMT
BBTS wants $50 for it.
If it were a bit more detailed (it looks like the handles are just painted on), I'd seriously consider it.
IMO, every day Nerf doesn't launch a movie/tv replica line is a massive missed opportunity.
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Nov 18, 2015 16:03:23 GMT
Depends on the licenses and costs involved. It might not make any sense.
Andy
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Post by The Doctor on Nov 18, 2015 16:07:43 GMT
There are some Star Wars Nerf products currently out to tie in with the new film.
-Ralph
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Post by legios on Nov 18, 2015 17:41:35 GMT
They are a bit pricier than similar non-licensed ironmongery from other Nerf sublines. (The First Order carbine is a really nice looking piece, with a lovely looking scope and not a bad stock on it, but fundamentally it is the same basic weapon as the Retaliator, which retails for five to seven pounds less). The Star Wars Brand is probably strong enough to get it sold even with price differential. Not sure if that would be true for all licenses.
Karl
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