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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2009 14:56:09 GMT
This has always bugged me - this rebuilding of Ginrai into Victory Leo because... what ever happens to the human Ginrai? I mean - God Ginrai is just a transtector right? And God Bomber is the actual Cybertron. So... when they rebuild him...what happens to God Bomber and Ginrai? Pete at the end of masterforce the human ginrai separates from the transtector, and because of magic or something, the transtector has gained life, so he goes off to fight the Decepticons in space. It seems he took on Ginrai's name, and Godbomber just stayed a part of him for some reason, up until Deszarus killerizes him  |
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dyrl
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Post by dyrl on Aug 5, 2009 15:19:11 GMT
AAAAHH!  Coool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for letting me know. That makes all of this all the moe palpable. So...despite the often insane story...it DOES hold together somehow Interesting... But... can Ginrai still Transformer without his Godmaster? Er...that is to say... why did the Godmasters become "engines" ? I mean...with Powermasters, it was understandable. Sort of. Insofar as engines like...er...activate the transformation and what not... although... that's...kind of stupid too...since Transformers should be able to...um...Transform...without small people turning into their..um..engines... Oh my... I'm probably asking to many questions about a kids show But I guess it's interesting to think about all these gimmicks... And please someone explain the Brainmaster concept to me ...unless...someone did and it's on the last page..(goes to check) Pete |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2009 15:36:00 GMT
they became engines/heads in masterforce so they could control the robot completely (basically more like power rangers than transformers in that sense)
The Brain masters are just little robots, no idea why, my only explanation is that they either are also from Planet Master (like the headmasters in headmasters) and just 'evolved' differently or they are just to give them human-like avatars in car/jet mode
I think Ginrai can still transform, but we never see him doing so, so maybe when he does, his engine stays in place?
Jean/Jan explains the whole Brainmasters incorporating different virtues in the episode where he starts school (really bizarre episode) like Bravery, Wisdom and Cunning I think or something lol
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Post by dyrl on Aug 5, 2009 16:18:01 GMT
The episode he starts school? That would be episode 3, meaning the next episode I'll be watching.... As for the Brainmasters being from planet Master...I guess that makes sense... but what about Planet Victory? Is it me, or am I basically running into a problem because I'm asking probing questions about what is clearly a plot written for 1st graders and kindergarteners? I mean... it has all of the basic necessities: good guys, bad guys. Comic relief. Earth (main stage), Planet Victory (secondary location). The moon. Galactic Alliance. Destrons and Cybertrons spread out throughout the universe... But it's all very diluted. I also wonder - since we're on the subject... Would it be fair to say that from Masterforce onwards, Transformers (Japanese) became kind of a super-natural magic fantasy Power Ranger pow fest? I mean... I watched the Japanese Headmasters and I do remember having the feeling that this was basically still in the vein of the first three seasons of the sunbow cartoon. Not just because the characters were pretty much all the same (at least for a good portion of it), but also just generally plot and aesthetic wise. I liked the Ultra Magnus vs. Sixshot arc. I don't recall too many flashing lights and while it did suddenly become an intergalactic romp when they started flying around in Fortress Maximus, it didn't go too crazy... But here it's basically like... Ok - first - Macktackler (or whatever the Cybertron Multiforce commander's name is) gets told to come to Earth/the moon...and what does he do? He flies off of planet victory (in robot mode at that!). Huh? Why? I mean - the show establishes that the Transformers use those warp-beam-transporter things...doesn't it? Why doesn't he use one? Or a space shuttle (since I assume the warp-beam-transporter is short range and can't take you over light years of intergalactic travel?) Then... Not only do you have dinosaurs flying through space (would be plasible if their armor had boosters visibly shown propelling them)... but Machtackle transforms into a...boat....to fire at the space-flying dinosaurs. So...basically you have a boat in space firing lasers at flying dinosaurs...in space.  This is enough to make even my very imaginative brain explode. I guess this isn't the first time strange things like this have happened. I remember Shockwave riding Starscream in space (as an F-15 at that) in season 2 of the cartoon, so I guess we just have to accept that Transformers can pretty much do ANYTHING! Speaking of which... but since I did also watch More than Meets the Eye part 1... So... The Autobots FLY to the oil rig to stop the Decepticons. Then Megatron shoots the oil rig so it begins to sink and... The Autobots slide off the rig as it tilts over and plunge into the water - mwahahaha! Here's something t keep you warm Prme!>.. boom! Now... I understand (or rather interpretted) that the Autobots don't FOLLOW after the escaping Decepticons because Prime hears Spike and Sparkplug pleading for help and the Autobots just stay behind to save humans (and Huffer). BUT - what I don't understand is WHY the Autobots plunged into the water and fell off the sinking oil rig in the first place? Clearly they have flight capacities - don't they? Or is it just short range flight and they burned all their fuel getting there? (if so - what was their exit strategy? Swimming to shore? Surely that would have expended more fuel than flying?).... I noticed that the writers were careful to insert references to scarcity and limited resources (the raison d'etre of the Ark's maiden voyage but also things like "fire the laser!"/"nothing! Power's used up!" or "Save your energy Starscream") ... but then in this situation it just seems the Transformers are capable of doing whatever the plot happens to require of them... And then they magically LOOSE this ability once the plot requires them to...oh...plunge dramatically into the water. This is one thing which makes the Transformers hard to stomach  Pete |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2009 17:19:38 GMT
well japanese transformers liked to include kids as main hero characters from masterforce onwards (fecking Kicker and Rad) but yeah, G1 Transformers in general is quite devoid of logic. I love the Victory series, but I do have to turn off my brain a bit when watching it, it helps to numb the illogical bits down Planet Victory isnt seen alot after the first few episodes, but in a while they arrive at Planet Master, which is now quite advanced  and full of Micromasters YAY! Including Holi's girlfriend BOO! The Dinoforce cheer me up very easily, due to their silliness, and how their combined form, Dinoking, is just useless basically (even the multiforce combiner Landcross can beat him!) Once the Breast Force can combine though, they make a very credible enemy Also, don't give up on the series at all, it progresses so well, and the last couple of episodes is awesome, especially the finale |
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Post by dyrl on Aug 5, 2009 19:23:03 GMT
I guess my mind was tad warped, because the only episodes of Victory I'd seen up to now are the episode where the Breast Force help their colleague break out of jail, Sixknight has a fiery face off with someone, and DeathCobra (awesome name) gets introduced into the mix, causing the jealousy of Hellbat (who was awesome!).
Based on seeing that episode, I had imagined Victory to be a lot more serious than these preliminary episodes indicate...
Pete
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2009 19:43:29 GMT
it does get alot more serious, especially when the whole breast force team are introduced, up till then its just a meet and greet episode basis |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Aug 5, 2009 20:01:51 GMT
Victory seems to take Masterforce-standard animators and waste them on scripts of mere Headmasters standard.
Masterforce was clearly written by one person or a very tightly disciplined team who were there for one year and one year only. The quality just stands out so starkly against all the other first-decade TF cartoon series.
Except... Sixknight seems a little bit like one of the Victory Destrons. He's probably my least favourite Masterforce character, because I don't find anything admirable in love of warfare, and so characters who claim to have codes of honour and principles and yet make seeking to prove themselves in combat their goal in life (which is really such a pointless, pathetic goal when there are so many more useful things they could be doing) just annoy the hell out of me. Either fight for good or for evil, but if you fight just because you like fighting don't wallow in angst about it or think you're worthy of any sort of respect.
Too many of those sorts of character in Victory for my liking. Very Klingon.
Martin
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2009 20:04:31 GMT
Victory seems to take Masterforce-standard animators and waste them on scripts of mere Headmasters standard. Masterforce was clearly written by one person or a very tightly disciplined team who were there for one year and one year only. The quality just stands out so starkly against all the other first-decade TF cartoon series. Except... Sixknight seems a little bit like one of the Victory Destrons. He's probably my least favourite Masterforce character, because I don't find anything admirable in love of warfare, and so characters who claim to have codes of honour and principles and yet make seeking to prove themselves in combat their goal in life (which is really such a pointless, pathetic goal when there are so many more useful things they could be doing) just annoy the hell out of me. Either fight for good or for evil, but if you fight just because you like fighting don't wallow in angst about it or think you're worthy of any sort of respect. Too many of those sorts of character in Victory for my liking. Very Klingon. Martin and look where it got sixnight, getting killed at the end of the series  |
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Post by legios on Aug 5, 2009 20:53:33 GMT
Too many of those sorts of character in Victory for my liking. Very Klingon. Martin To be expected given the inspirations they seem to have been looking at I guess. A lot of the characters in Victory seem influenced (as does Sixknight - who we will likely be discussing again in another thread in a couple of months or so) by populist Samurai dramas which are full of characters travelling around Japan looking to prove their skills as swordsmen. (Sixknight may as well be wearing a placard that says "I am robot Miyamoto Musashi" a lot of the time). Whereas Sixknight stands out from the crowd by being the lone Ronin who has stumbled into a superhero show, Victory leans towards being a mixture of Super Robot action with a veneer of samurai drama elements. (I'd agree that Victory is markedly inferior to Masterforce. There may be some elements I enjoy in Victory, but there is no contest as to which Transformers show of the pre-cg era has the strongest writing.) Karl |
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 5, 2009 21:07:35 GMT
Masterforce has a better storyline, though Victory remains my favourite. Probably because I saw it first.
-Ralph
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Post by dyrl on Aug 6, 2009 6:41:24 GMT
Great. So I guess I SHOULD be watching Masterforce! Pete |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2009 7:17:37 GMT
Great. So I guess I SHOULD be watching Masterforce! Pete TBH I'd say watch all of the Japanese G1 stuff (just not in that evil dubbed form) |
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Post by chrisl on Aug 6, 2009 12:49:04 GMT
Planet Victory isnt seen alot after the first few episodes, but in a while they arrive at Planet Master, which is now quite advanced and full of Micromasters YAY! Including Holi's girlfriend BOO! They don't go to Planet Master at all in Victory other than in a broadcast from Ginrai. They go to Planet Miklot/Micro which is the main planet in Zone. Totally agree |
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Post by chrisl on Aug 6, 2009 13:11:54 GMT
Masterforce has a better storyline, though Victory remains my favourite. Probably because I saw it first. -Ralph The problem with Victory is that with two exceptions (namely the introduction of Liokaiser and Victory Leo) all of the 'introduction of a character' episodes don't advance the ongoing storyline in the same way that similar episodes in Masterforce did. However, I also believe that Victory has some storyline advantages over Masterforce. Victory has a great number of subplots to Masterforce and is also better at weaving in elements of past series (i.e. Greatshot's background as Sixshot from Headmasters & the continuation of the Masterforce wars) while preparing for the next series (Zone). The pace of the last 5 episodes of Victory is also much better than the equivalent Masterforce ones which don't really get going until the penultimate episode. |
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Post by dyrl on Aug 6, 2009 13:18:20 GMT
Re: dubs:
Don't worry. I hate all forms of dubs, even "good" ones. I always watch all my anime in the original with sub titles. I find this far more rewarding.
Pete
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Post by blueshift on Aug 6, 2009 18:22:45 GMT
But... Greatshot isn't Sixshot!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2009 18:41:45 GMT
But... Greatshot isn't Sixshot! he's his cousin's friend's brother's mother's hairdresser's husband |
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Post by chrisl on Aug 6, 2009 18:59:52 GMT
But... Greatshot isn't Sixshot! It's one of those highly theorised things but not official. |
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Post by Jaymz on Aug 6, 2009 23:10:24 GMT
But... Greatshot isn't Sixshot! It's one of those highly theorised things but not official. TF Wiki says: For a while, there was much fandom speculation that Greatshot was an upgraded version of Sixshot. However, according the supplemental character bio included with Greatshot's toy, he is in fact a former compatriot of both Sixshot and Sixknight, who in turn were all members of the "Six Clan" that "secretly rules over the galaxy". |
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Post by chrisl on Aug 7, 2009 9:20:38 GMT
It's one of those highly theorised things but not official. TF Wiki says: For a while, there was much fandom speculation that Greatshot was an upgraded version of Sixshot. However, according the supplemental character bio included with Greatshot's toy, he is in fact a former compatriot of both Sixshot and Sixknight, who in turn were all members of the "Six Clan" that "secretly rules over the galaxy". Interesting. I always tended to agree with the idea of them being different characters until I thought about some of the subtext / coincidences (i.e. the toy, the same voice actor, the basic character history in the cartoon) and the fact I'm always dubious about some of the toy bio translations after the whole Black Shadow & Blue Bacchus "space mafia" mis-translation. If I could get an interview with the creator of the series it's one of those "did you intend this" questions I'd ask. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2009 11:11:27 GMT
originally when Sixshot left in Headmasters there was going to be a bit where he would go into space and learn to transform further than before, so originally the Greatshot toys was going to turn into like 100 things instead of 6 (lucky for the designers |
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Post by chrisl on Aug 7, 2009 13:12:25 GMT
originally when Sixshot left in Headmasters there was going to be a bit where he would go into space and learn to transform further than before, so originally the Greatshot toys was going to turn into like 100 things instead of 6 (lucky for the designers That's one of the things that persuades me the link was intended. |
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Post by Benn on Aug 7, 2009 17:20:29 GMT
and the fact I'm always dubious about some of the toy bio translations after the whole Black Shadow & Blue Bacchus "space mafia" mis-translation. Whut be that? I prefer Victory, anyway. Masterforce is good, and the storyline may be better, but there weren't enough actual Transformers in it, and those who were got massively relegated from about episode 6. Humes in Transformers suits are not Transformers to me. |
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Post by chrisl on Aug 7, 2009 17:57:45 GMT
and the fact I'm always dubious about some of the toy bio translations after the whole Black Shadow & Blue Bacchus "space mafia" mis-translation. Whut be that? . In the pre-internet-is-common 90s most of the translations of Japanese TF information and profiles were done by a guy called Doug Dlin and distributed via fanzine articles. He was pretty much accepted as THE authority on Japanese TFs as virtually nobody else could read Japanese. However he would often expand on a number of things in profiles, etc in his translations. For example for years it was taken as gospel that Black Shadow & Blue Bacchus belonged to the "Space Mafia" and had this whole backstory. There are loads of other similar myths that were doing the rounds at the time. |
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Post by Benn on Aug 7, 2009 18:37:53 GMT
Right, cool. Cheers!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2009 19:23:40 GMT
I prefer Masterforce over Victory and Headmasters. I didn't like it in Victory where they brought Ginrai back just so that they could kill him off. When they changed him into Victory Leo I thought it was rubbish. The merging of him with that lion transformer (the name escapes me at the moment) just didn't do anything for me as it was just one TF with another TF splitting into several parts and attaching onto the original TF. This was no fault with the cartoon but the toy design however. Victory is a good series but some of the TF's were just bland in my opinion and it looked like the toy line had about ran out of ideas.
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Aug 9, 2009 14:03:31 GMT
For example for years it was taken as gospel that Black Shadow & Blue Bacchus belonged to the "Space Mafia" and had this whole backstory. There are loads of other similar myths that were doing the rounds at the time. I wish the Space Mafia one was true, cos it sure sounds cool. |
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 9, 2009 17:11:30 GMT
Oh, I thought it was true. That's a shame.
-Ralph
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Post by dyrl on Aug 10, 2009 5:24:01 GMT
I watched episodes 3 and 4 in a row and think I fell asleep on 5... Anyways - it does get better. But Jan's explanation for the Brainmaster power is...is...well...it's the worse I've ever heard... It's just...it.... nevermind. But I do like the interaction between the Dinos and Leozack. Another thing I like about this series is that it seems that there are no longer Transformers left who don't combine - well... other than the Micromasters who... aren't even Micromasters...right? Because unless I'm mistaken, Holi and the Rescue force are not de facto Micromasters; but just little minibot sort of chaps? Like Bumblebee and the like? The story of Jan being orphaned and found and raised by Starsaber is interesting, and I liked the dialogue with the nun (always like Transformers dealing with domestic earth issues which is always harder for them to do than fighting alien super robots )... Martin was right - lots of "I challenge you! Yarg!" Samuarism going on here... And correct me if I'm wrong - but were those homages to Sparkplug and Spike at the power plant? Pete |
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Coool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and full of Micromasters YAY! Including Holi's girlfriend BOO!
