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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 18, 2010 17:28:59 GMT
Well yeah, James R knows better than anyone else here that I used to be just like that. I used to want to fit everything into one big scheme. That was before Beast Wars, and was hard enough then. Thankfully, I said "Sod this," before Dreamwave, Robots in Disguise, etc. came along, and decided to limit my interest to the one big comic saga that I'd followed for a decade and was (by current standards) relatively internally consistent, and Masterforce, which is a one-of-a-kind saga. I've kept an open mind for anything that might come along that is as different from the Marvel series as Masterforce _and_ good enough to be worth following, but haven't had such a different take on TFs brought to my attention. The closest would be the live-action movies, because of the novelty of the medium (though of course I don't respect them in the way I respect Marvel and Masterforce, and tend to partake of them when I feel like switching off my critical faculties). from my own experiences, does it matter, for example, where Blackest Night fits? Some people thought so! Depends if as a writer you're happy for the reader's reaction to be "Oh no! Wouldn't this be a terrible thing to happen to Bumblebee!" as opposed to "Oh no! Look what happens to Bumblebee!" Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Feb 18, 2010 18:28:39 GMT
Though #1 was not quite my cup of tea, my strong faith in the creative team means I have nonetheless put in an order for #2. And I had to pick up the Impactor cover for #1 too!
I plan to re-appraise #1 soon.
-Ralph
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Post by legios on Feb 18, 2010 20:59:47 GMT
And as for Masterforce, it's sufficiently different from every other TF story that it isn't really a re-boot or variation so much as something brand new. It could sell itself without the TF franchise label on it. Yes indeed. I've always described Masterforce as a Japanese Superhero series disguised as a Transformers show. A lot of the time it feels like it shares more with some versions of Ultraman and the like than it does with any of its nominal stablemates. I can understand your views here. I think on some l;evel I probably share them to some degree, not completely but enough to admit that I sympathise with them quite a bit when I sit down and think about it. I think that was at the root of my dissatisfaction with "Transformers: Animated", having now watched the whole of the first season and the first few episodes of the second I found myself feeling that their nods to previous versions of Transformers felt increasingly like speed-bumps placed in the way of my enjoying the series, and they felt like they were increasingly displacing the shows attempts to find its own identity. It certainly didn't really gell with me, because I haven't been particularly tempted to rent any more of it, even though it wouldn't cost me any more money I'm not already paying out for the rental service. Something about it just wasn't gelling with me and now that I sit down and think about it I do wonder if it isn't the fact that it doesn't bring anything really new to the table in the long run. I think a little bit of off-topic is healthy enough when it is interesting off-topic and provokes a bit of thinking. But in the interests of remaining on topic - LSoTW must be doing something right as I too have a copy of #2 on its way to me at this moment. Karl
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Post by Kingoji on Feb 19, 2010 6:57:01 GMT
Sorry guys, didn't mean to drag us off of the rails. I just thought it'd make an interesting aside. So I'll make this my last contribution to the OT I created.
Like Karl, I can totally understand Martin's viewpoint. But for me, it's not something that bothers me at all, because these guys are fictional. IDW, Dreamwave and Marvel's stories are all about the same characters, not the same people, or the same historical archetypes. In each series, they ARE the same guys, they just don't have the same past events to define them. How they got where they are is irrevlevent, though, because they are, for the most part, still the same 'people'. I know that many might say that they aren't the same, because itis ultimately a very specific set of past events which shapes everyone into who they are; change any of it and you'd have someone else entirely. I disagree with this for two reasons. First, If I hadn't broken my leg and arm on separate occasions as a child, would I be someone else? If I hadn't taken those beatings in highschool, would I be someone else? Who knows, but I'd like to think that it was my overall strength of character which brought me through the bad times into the nice guy I am today. If I hadn't had those kind of events, I'd still be the guy I am. And second, these are characters in the first place, works of fiction. Technically, NOTHING ever happened to them because they never really existed. Telling new stories with these same characters only saying that stuff you already read in a different continuity didn't happen anymore is no different than telling new stories with these same characters and expecting everyone to know their histories because of old comics in a different continuity. The past only matters when the writer makes it matter.
And just an extra aside to Karl; I think that before one can judge a series overall importance in the long run, one should stick with it for the long run. Most people who saw the first series and enjoyed it will not hesitate to tell you that it was the second and third series which defined it.
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Post by legios on Feb 19, 2010 7:36:05 GMT
I disagree with this for two reasons. First, If I hadn't broken my leg and arm on separate occasions as a child, would I be someone else? If I hadn't taken those beatings in highschool, would I be someone else? Who knows, but I'd like to think that it was my overall strength of character which brought me through the bad times into the nice guy I am today. If I hadn't had those kind of events, I'd still be the guy I am. Whereas I am of a slightly different opinion as to what makes us what we are. I tend to feel that our past events have a strong influence in shaping what we become. If I had had a different childhood, if someone I was very close to hadn't died a number of years ago, if I had remained where I originally grew up instead of moving to Scotland as a teenager, all of these things would have meant that I would have developed into a slightly different person. I don't think I would have become radically different, but with different events in my past there would be distinct differences. But then I've always been of the view that the answer to whether it is hereditry or environment that defines people is very much a distinct and unspecified yes. I would not presume to judge the importance of the series. I leave any such judgements to those more versed in modern Transformers than myself. All I really intended to comment on was my personal reaction to the show, and why I felt it didn't really work for me. Not intended as a judgement on the overall merits of the show - there are lots of perfectly good shows/books/comics in this world that don't really work for me, and that doesn't mean that they don't have value for those folk who do enjoy them. Karl
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Post by Kingoji on Feb 19, 2010 16:21:00 GMT
*thumbs up* Fair enough.
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Rich
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Post by Rich on Feb 19, 2010 17:32:24 GMT
Martin, I think your post #76 is a fantastic manifesto for creating a great Transformers comic, or indeed any comic. I believe for art to be truly staggering, it at least has to 'seem' original, but that there is entertainment to be had and, sometimes, value from variations on a theme, and there are clearly more people willing to invest in the latter as regards giant robot comics than there are those who are willing to take a punt on new Science Fiction comics.
There's also a well warn argument that there are only 6 (I think) stories and that everything else is just trimming.
It feels like I'm arguing against you, but all I wanted to do was say that I really enjoyed your post!
My personal feeling on all the iterations of TF (and it’s not based on LsotW, of which I’ve read only one issue) is that the basic story and some of the core characters do seem to be subject to the law of diminishing returns.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 20, 2010 9:44:36 GMT
Cheers, Rich.
I've never had time for the argument (which you didn't say you agreed with) that there are only six stories and everything else is trimming. To make the argument work, you have to dismiss as trimming vast amounts of stuff that on its own warrants the term story. One could say there are only six shapes - I dunno, dot, line, circle, polygon, elongations and combinations of these, whatever - until someone discovers fractals and three-dimensional shapes, and starts painting them with colour, etc.
One could try listing those six story types, and then tell me which of the six matches the story of Throttlebots having their bodies put into car-crushers by Triple-I but, thanks to Walter Barnett seeing the light, having their brain modules saved and installed in battery-powered toy cars that end up getting chased by Decepticons through a shopping mall. Or which of the six corresponds with humans devising an anti-missile system that has the side-effect of turning good robots bad and bad robots good. Or which one equates to a mad Autobot scientist radio-controlling an army of dead Transformers to protect the secret of his experimental planetary booster system.
I know what the people who make the argument are getting at: They would look at the 'City of Fear' saga, see Impactor's sacrifice at the end and say, "Yup, that's story 4: self-sacrifice for the greater good - I've read it before", or they'd look at Grimlock's search for Nucleon and say, "Yup, that's story 2: growing in stature by means of a quest - I've read it before". But really, if that's all they get from reading them, I despair. It's the richness and diversity of the journey that makes it for me, more than where it actually ends up. Even if there were only six destinations, which I dispute, there are a million different possible routes to get there.
I'm probably not arguing with anyone here with all the above. Except to say that it would be a shame to spend all your time looking at comfortingly familiar shapes made up of dots, lines, circles and polygons (even when they are jumbled up and rearranged in a configuration a bit different from previous combinations) when there are many more fractals (including Transformer-themed fractals, I have no doubt) out there to be discovered.
Martin
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Post by Rich on Feb 20, 2010 17:22:37 GMT
Good points. I guess there's not much difference bwteen the DNA of two average people, but those small differences can make for quite big differences.
I'm not sure I exactly agree with the 6 story thing, but I did find it interesting and quite clever when I read about it 5/6 years back.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2010 20:03:31 GMT
Still waiting for issue 1 to arrive. I want to see what I think of it all after the mixed reviews we've been getting here.
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Post by Kingoji on Feb 20, 2010 21:51:29 GMT
I think the gist of it is, whatever your opinion, it's still the best book IDW have put out since the -ations.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Feb 21, 2010 8:38:27 GMT
I think the gist of it is, whatever your opinion, it's still the best book IDW have put out since the -ations. Yeah, none of my opinions posted here should be taken as suggesting LSotW is anything less than as good as a TF comic series gets in the 21st Century. The better something is, the higher the standard of the material I hold it up to for comparison purposes, so I always end up giving James R a hard time. When I first read 'Eugenesis' it somehow didn't feel right to judge it by fanfiction standards, so instead I reviewed it keeping in mind the last proper novel I'd been exposed to, which, unluckily for James, was 'The Lord of the Rings' by JRR Tolkien. With 'The Last Stand of the Wreckers', in order to decide if it deserves the highest praise in a non-fanfiction context, I'm inevitably comparing what the five-issue mini-series does with the story ground that was broken in a similar number of pages by Mantlo and Salicrup in the original Marvel TF mini-series, or Furman in 'Target: 2006', and comparing what each individual 22-page issue adds plot-wise to what Budiansky was capable of doing in 22 pages (e.g. 'The Smelting Pool' - start/Cybertron/Polyhex/hunting empties/Blaster/harvester units/intervention/Darkmount/Scrounge/Shrapnel/infiltration/detection/pursuit/capture/Dead End/Autobase/Smelting Pool/Straxus/interrogation/Empties/rebellion/solo rescue mission/death/sacrifice/reinforcements/escape/chase/revenge/reward/hope/finish or 'Showdown' - start/Ravage tracking Robot-Master/campsite/introduce human leads/finding of Skids/repair/car chase/exposure/explanation/obsession with westerns/Skids' new life/intrusion/Ravage attacks/three-way chase/abandoned town/human attacks/Skids delirious/Skids recovers/final battle/victory/realisation/departure/finish). Or indeed what Simon F did in just 11 pages in the 'Wreck'n'Rule' chapter of 'T:2006', which contained that iconic Wreckers vs. Mayhems dry run of 'Operation: Volcano', an internal team debate on whether to drop the mission, the Maccadams Old Oil House scene with Fang, the scene with Xaaron twisting Impactor around his finger with logic and pushing all the right buttons to get the mission going again, and finally the Wreckers all re-volunteering without being asked and us coming full circle to where we began. 11 pages. It's a really tough challenge, because so many of the best TF ideas have already been done (by those writers), and dense packing of stories into comics may be horrendously out of fashion and frowned upon these days. But as I consider this to be the beginning rather than the peak of James and Nick's comic career, I think it's worth giving them a pinnacle to aim for rather than using up all the hyperbolae of praise on their first work so that there are no words to use for later, greater pieces. Such as Eugenesis, the graphic novel. Martin
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