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Post by grahamthomson on Mar 4, 2011 9:28:07 GMT
Back in the 90s, after the Transformers Generation 2 comic was cancelled I really thought that was it for Transformers, particularly as far as my collection went.
As Generation 2 was dying out in 94/95 and before Beast Wars, I really thought Transformers was going to disappear forever.
Not so. Obviously.
But do you see an end on the horizon? Both for the brand and your connection to it?
Will there come a time when you feel that everything that can be done with a transforming toy has been done? Or has that already happened?
Let's discuss!
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dyrl
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Post by dyrl on Mar 4, 2011 10:23:46 GMT
I think the brand risks whithering from within if anything. I also thought that after the G2 comics died - that was it. It was such a shock - and a welcome one at that - to see G2, and when it died it was just like - huh? - how? what?... Those were great days, in a sense, because with the END of the official story, there was a fixed number of G1/G2 toys to be had, and a fixed continuity, where the only real "contradictions" were between the cartoon and comics - and even those were fairly well tied up by the Target: 2006 story line which showed that the Movie-narrative (coming out of the cartoon narrative) inter-acted with another time line... err...anyways... When Beast Wars came out - I was not extremely negative about it, just kind of dumb-founded. The new toys were radically different and interesting. I hadn't yet seen the actual shows, but I read synopsises on bwtf.com ... As BW progressed and it became clear that this was a wonderful "prequil"/continuation of G1 - it was great... BM made more radical changes although stuck to the format... The Transformers universe seemed to be vast and yet also compact... then ... all of a sudden... ARMADA. Oh - how horrible horrible that was. The return of cars and planes was supposed to be good - but instead we got a step down in toy quality. Suddenly the poseability of the BW toys was sacrificed for forgettable kiddie gimmics, the ENTIRE story was re-vamped... horrible... Energon....Cyberron... all of it cack... Car Robots/RID was slap stick anime and kind of offbeat...but still pretty forgettable... Or was that between Armada and BM? Umm... anyways... point is... Over the years, I've just been depressed by the constant re-boots and also by how Hasbro has been so FLIPPANT in treating character names. I understand retaining the trade mark - but it hurt to see "Soundwave" on a stupid little car back in the 90s...and now it's just the norm to have names tossed about haphazardly... Probably movie Skids is the most offensive - Skids was such an awesome G1 character - and now he's some bad joke... That said - my faith in TF was somewhat restored by the first movie. It was very, very good. Not just graphics wise - but the story was great. Very evocative of the G1 Comics - showed a mastery for the mythos - almost... And then came ROTF...oh how that movie hurt. It hurt so much I didn't even see it in the cinema - I bought it on DVD about a year later... Now I'm upbeat about DOTM... I'm back into collecting the toys, though I'm still apprehensive about Transformers... although... in the end I guess I need to STOP WORRYING AND LEARN TO LOVE ALL TFS!  |
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 4, 2011 10:44:10 GMT
I think the comics are dead as a dodo creatively and have degenerated to generic tie-in bollocks. Their time has passed as imaginative works and I would no longer lament their passing.
The TV shows have some entertaining aspects but have been locked into recycling for about 10 years now.
The films exist to make money and intelligent storytelling is alien to them.
There however remains a good variety of creative thought in the toy-line. My interest remains strong there.
-Ralph
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Post by grahamthomson on Mar 4, 2011 11:06:02 GMT
Probably movie Skids is the most offensive - Skids was such an awesome G1 character - and now he's some bad joke.. If it makes you feel any better you should consider the movie Transformers to just be sharing names (as they did in Beast Wars) of older characters, not being continuations of those characters. |
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Mar 4, 2011 11:27:47 GMT
Ralph pretty much nails it for me.
Andy
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Post by Philip Ayres on Mar 4, 2011 11:29:29 GMT
Yeah sounds about right for me too.
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dyrl
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Transforming robots are no match for combat waitresses from the future!
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Post by dyrl on Mar 4, 2011 11:50:50 GMT
Probably movie Skids is the most offensive - Skids was such an awesome G1 character - and now he's some bad joke.. If it makes you feel any better you should consider the movie Transformers to just be sharing names (as they did in Beast Wars) of older characters, not being continuations of those characters. But the thing that made it ok in Beast Wars was that it was revealed that the BW characters were often just taking "legendary" names from the Great War (G1) - and that's ok. In the Movie Universe - there was never any "G1" (unless we say that the movie-verse is part of the whole "multi-verse" thing...which in a sense we can)... The Movie Universe - to me - is just a live action rendering of the entire TF mythos; taking the best elements from everything and putting them together... So...they should have thought a bit harder about Skids and his brother... maybe they could have been called "The Junkion twins" or something... it doesn't bother me in an extreme sense - it just bothers me in the sense that I would have prefered to JUNK the whole "stupid twins" slap stick concept and replace it with the G1 Skids character doing anthropological studies of humans. How much better would ROTF have been if we had a Skids doing anthropological research from time to time in place of all the stupid slap stick? Pete |
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Post by grahamthomson on Mar 4, 2011 12:04:37 GMT
Maybe you could call the character Skidmark instead. Skidmark and Mudflap, the Twins.
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Post by Shockprowl on Mar 4, 2011 12:09:00 GMT
Great thread. I'll always be interested in new toys and the like, but I can see my 'main' collections ending, when I have all the characters that I want. Like many fans, my collecting is primarily based on 'nostalgia', and my aim of collecting the '84/'85 crews in Classics and a core collection of 'grown-up' toys in the MP/Alt lines could well be fulfilled eventually. Although the toy-fighter in me will always be looking out for new toy ideas, and although the more recent Animated, Movie and Power Core lines haven't been to my taste, ideas are flowing, as Doc' said, and improvements are always being made. The Movies, action wise, have been ok, but story wise, urk. I think, however, that there is plenty of scope for some great Films and cartoons in the future, with better stories, 'cos there are such great characters within Transformers. It would just take brave film-maker to do it. And there's plenty of stuff that could be done even if the Films remained within the money making action arena. So, to answer the question, yes and no. My primary desired collecting requirement could indeed be eventually fulfilled, but I'd always be looking out for whats coming next, and cartoon/movie wise, there's still plenty that could be done. So no end in sight far as this handsome young Transformers fan is concerned!
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Mar 4, 2011 12:30:03 GMT
I actually wouldn't mind much if Transformers ended. I might even welcome it. This pretty much sums up why: Those were great days, in a sense, because with the END of the official story, there was a fixed number of G1/G2 toys to be had, and a fixed continuity I found that being a Transformers fan was a more enjoyable hobby back then. There was an identifiable target to aim for with your collection. You didn't know when you might get something new; you'd visit collector fairs and car boot sales in the hope of finding something and it was all the more exciting when you did find something. (And the things were cheap.) You longed to see episodes, comics or merchandise that you knew existed out there somewhere. In many ways, it was like other collecting hobbies, like toy trains or postcards. Even when Beast Wars came along, the hobby stayed much the same. It was exciting for there to be new Transformers, but there was still a fairly small expansion of items to find. Finding something new in the shops was a thrill. New TV episodes were sporadic and something to be looked forward to. At the same time, conventions were just starting off and were a place to find little treasures and it was exciting to meet Simon Furman etc for the first time. Today, there isn't the same thrill. There's always something available to buy. Even the previously scarce treasures can be found easily (and expensively) on eBay. At the same time, there's a multimedia onslaught and countless new toys and other items that continually make the finite goal less attainable. If Transformers were to cease, the more enjoyable hobbyist ethos of the mid-nineties could never really return. All the media is available on-demand (most of it legally) and the big conventions wouldn't disappear overnight (albeit they may downsize and there might not be an official convention); eBay would still make it easy to buy and all the information you want would remain available online. But, there would likely be a movement towards the way it was then. Do I think the brand will end? No, not as long as it's profitable for Hasbro/Takara to continue making the toys. There have been new products available somewhere every year since 1984; the brand has never truly gone away. There are no signs of it going away anytime soon. It may even be in its strongest position ever at the moment. The brand will likely be pared right down (again) but by then, as has happened in the last few years with the original fans, the Beast Wars fans will have grown up and have the money - and children - to reinvigorate the brand. Then there will be a cycle when the Bay children will become adults and so on. Although I wouldn't really object to the brand ending, I hope it doesn't end soon, as I thnk we are in one of the best periods for the toys themselves. We've gone through a period of overly gimmicky toys. We've gone through a period of overly-complicated toys, synonymous perhaps with toys that lack durability. We've gone through these periods with lessons learned. The toys are returning to core principles. They are more durable, they are simpler to transform yet remain technically advanced, automorphs are robust and enhance the toys, they are more interactive with each other, they have good articulation. In short, they are better now than they have been for some time. I feel like I should end this post with "long live Transformers" or something. |
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Post by Bogatan on Mar 4, 2011 13:25:00 GMT
When Marvel UK comic ended I lost a lot of interest, but Overlord and then G2 appeared and brought me back.
Armada all but killed my interest between 2002 and 2005. Any Energon I got was on sale and did little to interest me, if that had been all there was I might have felt like dropping it completely. But by then there were reissues and Takara were doing there own things, a Masterpiece Prime here, a WST there and a God Ginari somewhere. By 2006 The Cybertron cartoon was amusing me and with nothing better to do I decided to try out Botcon because of the Beast Wars theme. Since then the lines have almost all gone in directions I like.
So can I see myself stopping? Yeah if theres a sustained period that doesn't interest me and other things fill the hobby space, but with so many line and media I can't imagine that will be for a while.
As a brand, not for a long time.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Mar 4, 2011 17:38:05 GMT
This thread isn't really for me as I last bought a proper Transformer in 1993, and now only have 1984/5 toys in my collection. As far as toys go, I feel that all the best ideas were done in the first two years, and the best they've done in the years since then is make better quality / bigger / smaller versions of the original models.
As far as stories are concerned, there has been very little originality or imagination since the Marvel comics and Masterforce. Everything else is variations on themes first used in those two series - even Beast Wars.
And yet I'm still here!
On a positive note, I'm happy with the immortality that the early toys and comics have gained through all the recent re-engineerings of the original toy designs, and the endless reprints of the Marvel comics. Even without the repints, no Transformers comic stories will ever be read by as many people as the Marvel ones were, and I get a kick from reading them - and new stories spinning off from them - again and again.
Martin
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Post by Bogatan on Mar 4, 2011 22:47:38 GMT
Going back to the idea of constant reboots I have to admit they have grown on me. When I first watch RID I had the constant urge to make it fit G1, but now I look at G1 and think that was a hugely long time to follow a sprawling universe and having a short series is much less of a commitment. If it goes in a direction I don't like I can just wait for the next one, as I did with Armada and Energon.
Also it means we get things like Animated that are fresh and fun that would not fit into G1. And because they only run for a few years at most there a much more finite line to collect. I like knowing that barring the odd exclusive have a full set of Animated al done and dusted.
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Post by mabus1984 on Mar 5, 2011 12:21:50 GMT
I think Hasbro at the moment are releasing FAR too many Transformers of all kinds. Their market will get saturated at some point, if it already hasn't started. Whether the movie lines will still be continuing in a few years after the third movie has come or gone is another question.
Like legends/scouts/deluxe/voyager and repaints of near enough all of them is madness when you consider how many lines Hasbro has going at the moment.
However i feel Hasbro could make good money in the years after the movie toys pass. They could re-release more of the original Transformers or updated versions such as even-cooler Pretenders, more articulate Micromasters etc. etc. They could revisit and update the Powermasters and do Headmasters.
They could do more cool things like Takara do such as Soundwave MP3 players etc.
Other than needing the Beast Wars series to complete my G1 (inc. Japanese) to Beast Machines DVD collection and the rest of the UK comic compilations to go along with my complete US comic compilations - i only see myself concentrating on the Classics/Universe/RTS original characters.
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Post by grahamthomson on Mar 7, 2011 11:01:09 GMT
I actually wouldn't mind much if Transformers ended. I might even welcome it. This pretty much sums up why: Those were great days, in a sense, because with the END of the official story, there was a fixed number of G1/G2 toys to be had, and a fixed continuity I find myself agreeing with this wholeheartedly. |
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Post by mabus1984 on Mar 7, 2011 11:19:25 GMT
I actually wouldn't mind much if Transformers ended. I might even welcome it. This pretty much sums up why: I find myself agreeing with this wholeheartedly. It did seem to have more magic like back in the day when you had to download the rar files from TFArchive or somewhere and combine them all together just to see the movie etc. |
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Post by blueshift on Mar 7, 2011 11:41:13 GMT
I find myself agreeing with this wholeheartedly. It did seem to have more magic like back in the day when you had to download the rar files from TFArchive or somewhere and combine them all together just to see the movie etc. I remember spending hours downloading 5mb really poorly coded raw japanese files of Car Robots, and it was bloody awesome We are too spoilt nowadays |
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Post by shadowynne on Mar 7, 2011 14:45:42 GMT
hmmm... well i am a really odd collector... i only buy individual transformers on the merit of the toy alone. sure i follow favorite characters more intently but if the toy for a character, even if it is one of my favorites, is poor, i wont buy it.
i grew up though the G1 era and i loved it. i had several TFs and managed to keep most. during the G2 era i picked up a few, same for beast wars but i really trailled off after that. i picked up the odd TF if i found one i liked but certainly didnt chase anything.
then in the last few years with the classics line heating up and the bayverse and animated lines producing some truly excellent toys my collection started bulking up again.
all in all i dont see TF dissapearing completely for many many years. nor do i see my collection being complete (until death at least) as im not that kind of collector, i dont have the gotta buy them all mentality. i buy from any line/class as long as i like the toy, so as long as they make toys i will probably still get them...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2011 15:19:17 GMT
From a sellers point of view the market is pretty much saturated, there is more interest in unlicensed 3rd party items between collectors that we sell to than actual Hasbro products. Overall most popular products we sell at the mo are Hot Toys and we have seen a general decline in TF sales over the last 12 months, maybe its because there is no movie but at the same time we've had a lot of regular buyers contact us asking if we will buy their collections due to them leaving the hobby. I will be around until it stops being fun, when that may be who knows  |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Mar 8, 2011 16:23:10 GMT
I don't get this at all. I think the last 12 months have bee one of the best for Transformers toys for a long long time.
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Post by Bogatan on Mar 8, 2011 16:53:53 GMT
I don't get this at all. I think the last 12 months have bee one of the best for Transformers toys for a long long time. Agreed, but I also feel that theres been a bit of an overload too, theres too much and at the same time thanks to Hasbro UK no one knows whats coming and whats not. Its kind of made it exhausting. I can see how its maybe stopped being fun for some people. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2011 17:43:49 GMT
Well..............its goes like this ROTF was super hot when it first came out and stock was like rocking horse poop, it stayed that way at UK wholesale for quite a few months especially with leaders. Then the movie finished and a whole stack of product became available at UK wholesale effectively backing everything up, indie retailers like us had already turned to import and didnt want the stock and regular stores already had piles of preview bee and soundwave clogging up space and didnt take anymore ( read Asda, Tesco etc who dont look at individual items just the shelf space ) This meant we didnt get any later wave ROTF stuff like Long Haul, Grindor etc and ever since then Hasbro UK seemed to be really REALLY behind on things, apart from Generations Wave 1 and 2 last year we hardly bought anything from them as it just wasnt available, they were too busy flogging discount Human Alliance, Leader and Voyagers to people like The Entertainer to care. A good example of the overload factor is with Generations getting the chop, I spoke with our rep who explained that the big customers such as Asda, TRU, Tesco and Argos were getting annoyed at the multiple lines sold under one brand and wanted some sort of simplification, this in turn meant Generations got the chop as it came on the red card, everything else if you notice now comes on the yellow card or box ( RTS, HFTD) apart from PCC which was supposed to have a marketing campaign aimed at kids according to the ad literature which never materialised. There are no more RTS planned for the near future and after wave 2 its ditched for the movie once again which falls in line with one box and card style so supermarkets and big box retailers dont have to dedicate multiple peg space to it. |
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Post by mabus1984 on Mar 9, 2011 11:52:03 GMT
A good example of the overload factor is with Generations getting the chop, I spoke with our rep who explained that the big customers such as Asda, TRU, Tesco and Argos were getting annoyed at the multiple lines sold under one brand and wanted some sort of simplification, this in turn meant Generations got the chop as it came on the red card, everything else if you notice now comes on the yellow card or box ( RTS, HFTD) apart from PCC which was supposed to have a marketing campaign aimed at kids according to the ad literature which never materialised. There are no more RTS planned for the near future and after wave 2 its ditched for the movie once again which falls in line with one box and card style so supermarkets and big box retailers dont have to dedicate multiple peg space to it. Not surprised they are sick of the broad range. It makes it difficult to know what to stock. Some Tesco's and Asda's sell certain lines whilst others don't and it does my nut as it means i have to travel umpteen miles to find one selling what i'm after. As long as Demolition Rumble and Grapple are released along with the 4 deluxes i'll happily wait until they are back. I'll get to save some pennies :-) |
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Post by grahamthomson on Mar 9, 2011 12:31:37 GMT
Excuse my language but keeping track of the releases of new TFs is a total brainfuck.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Mar 9, 2011 12:52:37 GMT
As long as Demolition Rumble and Grapple are released along with the 4 deluxes i'll happily wait until they are back. I'll get to save some pennies :-) Grappel was found in Sainsburys yesterday, along with Lugnut & Strafe. Excuse my language but keeping track of the releases of new TFs is a total brainfuck. Fortunately we've got a thread laying out the important stuff here: 2011 Toys: PCC, Generations & Reveal The Shield |
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Post by blueshift on Mar 9, 2011 15:00:47 GMT
Excuse my language but keeping track of the releases of new TFs is a total brainfuck. I think we are too spoiled at the moment. I have warm nostalgia for the day where an entire year's output was two dozen figures worldwide. It made each release seem a bit more exciting and 'special'. Now they're pumped out. The Botcon figures seem like just another subline rather than an exciting one-off thing for the fans. But then again, back then I'm sure we were wishing Hasbro would pump stuff out. I guess having a wider selection is good in that no-one forces you to buy everything and you have a bigger choice, but then it makes each item seem a bit less special. |
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Nigel
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Post by Nigel on Mar 9, 2011 17:30:34 GMT
With today's consumerism, relatively high disposable incomes and throwaway attitudes, it seems that for many children a new Transformer isn't something special.
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Post by grahamthomson on Mar 9, 2011 19:50:22 GMT
Especially if those children didn't even like Transformers!
Now here's a question: Does a larger Transformers range mean that the designers aren't able to devote enough time to each individual toy?
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Post by Bogatan on Mar 9, 2011 20:06:06 GMT
Especially if those children didn't even like Transformers! Now here's a question: Does a larger Transformers range mean that the designers aren't able to devote enough time to each individual toy? I'd have to say no, the Generations/RTS classics figures are approaching works of art to my mind. If I have doubts its about the production standards. I suppose ROTF Prime is a case in point. Even the most unhappy with it seem to find it difficult to criticise the design. Of course it could be that the designers could spend more time to improve the manufactured results. |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Mar 9, 2011 20:15:52 GMT
I think each toy could do with a longer shelf life
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