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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Mar 5, 2020 6:24:30 GMT
I like them being brothers way better than the popular idea of prowl/bluestreak/smokescreen, starscream/thundercracker/skywarp, or magnus/prime being brothers simply because they share molds. But at least if you make the definition of 'brother' for a robot 'sharing the same mold' then you know what it means. If Sideswipe and Sunstreaker are 'brothers' you need to explain what it means. ('Cos it sure doesn't mean what it means for biological life-forms.) Does it mean they are brothers-in-arms? Or that they were Matrixed at the same time, or built by the same engineer? Any of those definitions mean loads and loads of the TFs are automatically 'brothers'. Also, why the blazes wasn't Sideswipe in Earth force!?? Sideswipe and Tracks were in the second wave of Classic Hero toys (replacing Ironhide and Sunstreaker, the poorest toys in the first wave of six) and Tracks was introduced to the Earthforce stories pretty late. I'm sure Sideswipe would have turned up pretty soon if the stories had continued. At least he was the star of the last great wraparound cover poster.  Martin |
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Post by Toph on Mar 5, 2020 6:59:48 GMT
I like them being brothers way better than the popular idea of prowl/bluestreak/smokescreen, starscream/thundercracker/skywarp, or magnus/prime being brothers simply because they share molds. But at least if you make the definition of 'brother' for a robot 'sharing the same mold' then you know what it means. If Sideswipe and Sunstreaker are 'brothers' you need to explain what it means. ('Cos it sure doesn't mean what it means for biological life-forms.) Does it mean they are brothers-in-arms? Or that they were Matrixed at the same time, or built by the same engineer? Any of those definitions mean loads and loads of the TFs are automatically 'brothers'. Martin But it's way more interesting than "we're family because we're identical." |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Mar 5, 2020 7:09:21 GMT
But it's way more interesting than "we're family because we're identical." Only if the writers who applied the term did something with it to give the word a meaning. But they didn't, so there was never any concept behind the word to be interested in. It was just a word that could mean anything or nothing. And that's not interesting to me. Martin |
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The Huff
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Post by The Huff on Mar 5, 2020 7:57:44 GMT
Also, why the blazes wasn't Sideswipe in Earth force!?? Sideswipe and Tracks were in the second wave of Classic Hero toys (replacing Ironhide and Sunstreaker, the poorest toys in the first wave of six) Martin[/quote] I've always liked the way that they were also the two Classic Autobot Action Masters that same year. |
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Post by Toph on Mar 5, 2020 9:06:16 GMT
But it's way more interesting than "we're family because we're identical." Only if the writers who applied the term did something with it to give the word a meaning. But they didn't, so there was never any concept behind the word to be interested in. It was just a word that could mean anything or nothing. And that's not interesting to me. Martin Saying Optimus and Magnus are brothers simply because they share a mold, with zero thought put into it from the writer is just as meaningless, and requires the exact same amount of speculation from the consumer as two who aren't identical . But said speculation usually results in the easiest conclusions that require the least imaginative effort, and isn't the least bit interesting. They were built in a factory using the same plans? That's boring, and makes the word "brother" completely hollow. To me, that's not even low hanging fruit for me. That's just picking it up off the ground. The other way makes me think seriously about their biology, about how they're created, and about such. And since these two were the only canon brothers (at least in western fiction) for a long time, it must mean this word something really meaningful. Quite frankly, the fact that they're brothers is the only interesting thing about these two characters that really contributed nothing more to the franchise than this. |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Mar 5, 2020 18:41:59 GMT
Saying Optimus and Magnus are brothers simply because they share a mold, with zero thought put into it from the writer is just as meaningless I agree it's equally meaningless, but you said the other options were 'way more interesting'.  Sideswipe and Sunstreaker don't have the same mold, so I accept for TFs that is clearly not what the word 'brother' means (though they could have made it mean that if they'd wanted to). Sideswipe and Sunstreaker are referred to on their tech-specs as both 'twins' and 'twin brothers', and 'twin' suggests they came into the world in a batch of two (if there had been three, the tech-specs should have said 'triplets', etc.). The word 'twin' makes the addition of the word 'brother' somewhat redundant, other than to reinforce the sense of the word 'twin'. I'm not aware of any TFs being referred to as 'brothers' who aren't also referred to as 'twins', so the word may have no meaning beyond the context of 'twin' (i.e. created in a batch of two). That's not very exciting, but it's logical, and allows us to move on from reading too much into a word used by carbon-based biological life-forms without making robots too much like us. Martin |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Mar 5, 2020 18:52:10 GMT
PS I guess the Aerialbots are quintuplets or quintuplet brothers.
Martin
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Post by Llama God on Mar 6, 2020 7:30:52 GMT
Can you have Sideswipe without Sunstreaker? Most definitely. I got Sideswipe in 1986, Sunstreaker in 1990. On Cybertron, Sunstreaker was in 'State Games' and was a member of the Magnificent Six. Sideswipe wasn't. Sunstreaker was taken offline in TFUS #5, while Sideswipe went on to appear in stories like 'Prime Time', 'Dinobot Hunt' and 'To a Power Unknown'. Sunstreaker was in Earthforce and late TFUS stories. Sideswipe wasn't. Sideswipe was in G2. Sunstreaker wasn't. Sunstreaker was in the animated movie. Sideswipe wasn't. After TFUS #2, I don't know if they ever appeared in each other's presence in the comics! Yep, exactly this. Even though I know that they're meant to be brothers, having the two as a set is something that just doesn't matter to me, since I don't associate them together at all. The conjunx, on the other hand, is desperate to get an ER Sunstreaker because we've got a Sideswipe, and she does picture them as a duo. But she will admit that that's mostly down to a lot of fan fiction from sites like Live Journal in the early noughties that depicted them as such (and which actually gave Sideswipe a character)... |
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Post by Llama God on Mar 6, 2020 7:31:37 GMT
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Post by Shockprowl on Mar 6, 2020 7:59:08 GMT
Yeah it is actually.
I've just never fully 'got' Bluestreak. He talks a lot. He hates war, but has a ton of weaponry. Courage 2?! I've never got a handle on him.
Regarding Sideswipe/Sunstreaker, yes I think the whole 'brother' thing was a dumb idea. I will erase it from my mind. Sideswipe is the more interesting character and the more interesting looking robot.
Sideswipe: alone...
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Post by Toph on Mar 6, 2020 9:02:08 GMT
"Sideswipe: Alone" sounds like it would be a story where he has to crawl through the sewers to save the X-Men from the Hellfire Club.
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Post by Benn on Mar 6, 2020 9:31:56 GMT
It's okay, Sunstreaker. I still love you.
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 6, 2020 10:31:33 GMT
Also: the original Sunstreaker toy is...shit.
-Ralph
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Post by Philip Ayres on Mar 6, 2020 11:45:43 GMT
No he isn't.
He's not Sideswipe or Inferno but he's better than some of the 1984/5 cars.
Ok, yes, the red blemishes spoil it in car mode a bit.....
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 6, 2020 14:20:35 GMT
I just don't think it's very good. By far the least of the original Autobot cars. Sunstreaker and Wheeljack are not good: the rest are fab.
-Ralph
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The Huff
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Post by The Huff on Mar 6, 2020 16:15:11 GMT
What's wrong with the Sunstreaker toy?
He is a good size, a unique mold, has interchangeable fists/missiles/cube things, legs that don't look like one block stuck together and a wonderful detailed head/face.
It's also pretty much THE first Transforming car made so deserves respect.
The only thing I could never work out is that flap under his car mode that never clips into place properly over the arms.
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Post by Shockprowl on Mar 6, 2020 16:48:07 GMT
Hmmm, never thought about ranking the original Autos in mold preference before, which is strange for someone who likes writing lists.
Let's see...
1 - Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen - no it's not an automatic Prowl vote! The car-bonnet-chest look is so iconic it has to be first! Really neat looking toys to, with nice weapons.
2 - Mirage - something luxurious about this mold.
3 - Ratchet/Ironhide - funky, alien, unique.
4 - Tracks - hello, flying car? Awesome.
5 - Sideswipe/Red Alert - surprised how high I've put this mold, but it is a great compact Transformer.
6 - Skids - love this mold. Should've had its bike.
7 - Jazz - another iconic bonnet-former, but doesn't do it as well as the Fairladies.
8 - Wheeljack - see Doc', I love this mold, it's so different.
9 - Inferno/Grapple - nice big mold.
10 - Hound - never held one, but looks ok, apart from the arms (this is the only original TF mold I have no experience of).
11 - Sunstreaker - huh, yeah, this mold is low on my list, just doesn't look as natural as the others. Odd proportions. Edit: and the flap Hufferlover mentions above used to really annoy me.
12 - Trailbreaker/Hoist - I find this mold a bit clumsy.
And if Optimus Prime was on the list, he'd go straight in at number 1, utterly superb toy.
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 6, 2020 17:45:03 GMT
What's wrong with the Sunstreaker toy? He is a good size, a unique mold, has interchangeable fists/missiles/cube things, legs that don't look like one block stuck together and a wonderful detailed head/face. It's also pretty much THE first Transforming car made so deserves respect. The only thing I could never work out is that flap under his car mode that never clips into place properly over the arms. I just think it's crap. I was so disappointed when I finally got to fiddle with one. -Ralph |
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Post by Benn on Mar 6, 2020 18:31:06 GMT
I’m gonna put you all on bloody trial at this rate.
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Post by Toph on Mar 6, 2020 18:48:18 GMT
I never had an original sunstreaker, never messed with one, and never seen one in person (that wasn't in package, on a store shelf back in the mid eighties)
So I really am in no position to comment on what the toy wad like.
Only 84/85 autobot cars I had were Prowl, Ironhide, Tracks, and Hoist.
Didn't get Jazz, Sideswipe, or Inferno unto their G2 releases.
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Post by The Huff on Mar 6, 2020 19:08:58 GMT
I'd agree that the Datsun mold is the best if it weren't for the lack of side windows resulting in the easily broken car roof.
Still the most iconic though.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Mar 6, 2020 19:12:46 GMT
We owned Ironhide & Skids I got Sideswipe, Mirage and Hound as cast offs in various states of disrepair. Wheeljack and Sunstreaker were gold boxed classics purchases in year 1 of University. Sideswipe (again) and Inferno I bought the G2 versions. They were sold 96 and variously rebought and resold and rebought over the next few decades. In 2009 I finally owned Trailbreaker (courtesy of Encore) the last of the 1984/5 cars I'd never owned and a few years ago I acquired an AMAZING looking Sunstreaker from The Fu to complete a currently owned set. My Wheeljack is waiting on Bogatan to fix the legs and has been for sometime Sunstreaker is an original as is Mirage. Got Sunstreaker's box and paperwork Wheeljack is either Original or Classics. The thin retaining bars on his legs are currently broken. Sideswipe & Inferno are uncertain, probably Transformers Collection. Bought/given 2nd hand no boxes. Prowl, Tracks, Smokescreen & Hound are TFC Grapple, Bluestreak & Red Alert are Commemorative Series Jazz, Ironhide, Ratchet, Hoist & Trailbreaker are Encore Skids is either TFC or Encore, I don't recall which! For alternate colour schemes I also own TFC Stepper and EHobby Protect Black Iron Hide |
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Post by Pinwig on Mar 6, 2020 19:22:10 GMT
Wheeljack are not good: the rest are fab. WHAT. Next time we have breakfast, I'm confiscating your salt. |
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 6, 2020 21:14:19 GMT
You're not talking my salt, Pinwig!!!
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Mar 6, 2020 22:02:42 GMT
You besmirched Wheeljack! No salt for Ralph!
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Post by The Doctor on Mar 6, 2020 22:11:45 GMT
It's not a good toy. Hideous monkey arms.
Wheeljack did not get a good toy until the Action Master.
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Mar 6, 2020 22:16:57 GMT
I think that's why I like him. He looks a bit different. Wheeljack's one I've had and loved from the start.
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Post by Shockprowl on Mar 7, 2020 7:14:24 GMT
I love Wheeljack. After the Ratchet/Ironhide mold he's the most alien looking. Amazing head/face, unique design, and a great character.
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Post by Toph on Mar 7, 2020 7:24:21 GMT
Wheeljack's gorilla arms seem to be a feature, rather than a flaw.
It's a trait shared by Prime Wheeljack, I think Animated Wheeljack, and even Earthrise Wheeljack (not as dramatically as TFP or G1, but his are still "oversized")
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The Huff
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Post by The Huff on Mar 7, 2020 9:06:17 GMT
Yes, it was the cartoon and comic that got it wrong. Gorilla arms would be very useful for a mechanic - lifting, reaching, fixing, holding experimental weapons a long way away from your face when they explode...etc.
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