Stomski
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YOU INTERRUPTED MY SPEECH!! But don't worry. It won't happen again.
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Post by Stomski on Jun 19, 2009 2:22:39 GMT
Spoiler tastic so watch out, but you come in to this thread what did you expect?
Just back from a 12.01 showing at a local Vue Cinema, here's my brain dump.
General plot outline is far too similar to the first film. Decepticons are about, but we don't know why. Oh shit the Earth's at risk by some doohicky. Let's race to get it sorted. At least the fight was motivated by Energon this time. Maybe the 3rd film will finally deliver what I want? (Although honestly for that I want a Unicron type thing).
Fight mid-way through where Prime dies was pretty awesome.
Still not enough character development of the key Decepticons except for a few to and fros between Megs and Starscream.
No proper introduction for new Autobots, I kept trying to read Mudflap's number plate, but it was too hard to read.
Jetfire combining with Prime at the end was in keeping with Armada/Energon etc. The fact that he defected was a nice touch.
Conversely, Wheelie a Decepticon defector? WTF?
Why didn't they just use Sam's All Spark fragment to revive Prime like the Decepticons did with Megatron?
Don't Transformers stop operating when really cold? If so, how could the Decepticons operate on the sea floor, that's why they dumped Megs there wasn't it?
Yay- a Pretender!!
No individual Constructicon robots battling before combining... Would have had much more impact.
Too many unnamed robots. Yes we all want more, but we want characters, and when the faces and body parts are so haphazardly put together, how are we meant to identify who's who without an introduction?
The lecturer stating that he was the Alpha and the Omega was a nice touch. As was Sam defacing the Bad Boys II poster.
What happened to Skids and Mudflap?
Why did we not get a shot of Prime explaining that the Matrix was more than just a key and that Sam had some how braindumped the knowledge he held in to it. Prime could have then put the Matrix in his chest for safe keeping and yada yada, we're back on track with G1 stylings.
The fact that some Transformers can basically change their shape at will (reformatting different alt modes, Frenzy's head able to change in to Mikaelas phone, those freaky ball things that Ravage drops down the air vent) is all far too convenient.
Megan Fox slow motion running, weeeeeeeee...
That is all.
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Post by Bogatan on Jun 19, 2009 8:45:17 GMT
Still struggling to process it all.
The Good Megatron Starscream and the Fallen. Actual interaction and conversation between the cons. Rather than screaming roid rage robots.
Soundwave
Prime worked out how to kick ass in the 2 years.
So did Bumblebee.
Jetfire merging with Prime. If Cybertron had required the mergee to die in the process the show would have ended after 10 shows when there were no more transformers left.
Despite what I say below, I like the new characters.
In particular Wheelie.
The new designs. A lot more distinct and fun. Particularly the vehicon stly stuff.
The bad
The new characters make Bumblebees urination, Ironhides guns, Ratchet pheromone sniffing and Jazz's "bitches" seem like subtle characters developement.
The Arcee concept was interesting, shame it wasnt developed, at all.
theres so much going on.
Jetfire merging with Prime. Way to TF Cybertron.
Al the new characters take a que from TF:C in that the personalities are all sterotypes, red necks, the Brit, the old guy.
Timeframe. Trying to merge the concept of an ancient time for the human race and Transformers didn't add up on first viewing. 17000 year for Humanity is an ancient lost time. But surely for Transformers 17000 years is the equivilant of the 1920's. Outside of most of the populations lifetime but not quite everyones.
Considering Megatron had crashed on to Earth a few thousand years ago and had already had time to wage a planet destroying war it seems Transformers life spans are not measured in millions of years, thats good, but I still dont see 17000 years as being such an ancient lost time to them.
Megatrons twig arm.
Not enough Ratchet and Ironhide.
Back to the too much. What was the point of the pretender, also the dick NSA liason. The story would have worked fine without them.
Stuff going on off screen. BB and the parent are last seen fleeing at top speed only to reappear at the climax. Obviously they decided they could just run away but shouldn't that conversation have been on screen? There were a couple of other occasions too.
I'm forgeting loads more.
I still don't know if it was any good. Probably not, but I still enjoyed it. There is a lot more good stuff but it was the bad that was frustating me as I watched it.
Andy
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 19, 2009 13:01:59 GMT
Afternoon, chaps. I'm quite satisfied with what I just saw, given the expectations. Let's face it, Michael Bay and co. are good at what they claim to be good at, and their trailers, teasers and publicity in general are an honest representation of what you'll get if you go see it (unlike many other films, whose trailers mislead you into going to see them). It was also consistent with the style and quality of the first film, and I can't see any way in which it can be said to be a step down. It was more of the same - with some predictably annoying elements, and some nice surprises also.
The annoying elements - first and foremost the Twins, who were absolutely terrible. Not at all funny. Likewise Sam's mum on drugs.
The boring bits - the Decepticons. They got an even worse deal in the sequel than they did in the first film. The Fallen, Megatron and Starscream were dull, dull, dull. Far too serious about their plans - they seemed to have walked into the wrong film, really. Was that Cybertron they were on after Megatron got reactivated? 'Cos that was dull too. I don't want to see any more off-world stuff in the live-action movie franchise. Keep it on Earth. As for the rest of them, Soundwave looked good, Ravage looked good, Ravage's two-dimensional friend looked very good, but the rest were just cannon-fodder. At least in the first film they were treated and introduced individually, so they all got a moment to shine. Not here. Most didn't even get names. As far as I can tell, there were at least two sets of Constructicons running around at the end - one lot combined, the others fighting individually. All were toast. And the lack of uniform colour schemes for the combiners was a bad mistake in my view.
The good - as always, Bay makes good use of his military friends, who loan him just about all the hardware they have, provided that he makes them look good. And as in the first film, I fully approve of they way he has the Autobots and human military work together to defeat the Decepticons in battle - the Decepticons being more than a match for either when taken individually, but outgunned when the two forces combine. It's a nice, satisfying way to resolve things - and in fact the only convincing way to allow the good guys to triumph, in my opinion. Next - Jetfire - the most charismatic and watchable character in the film, I found. I really like this guy. If I could have one TF from the films as my pal, it would be him. I was pleased to see him combine with Prime at the end - again, much more convincing than if Prime had managed to win just through determination and willpower. But please don't credit later TF series with the inspiration for this - it was Masterforce that pioneered this concept. Godbomber was Prime's combining battle armour that gave him flight capabilities and whopping shoulder-mounted missiles back in 1988. And I suspect the writers got the idea direct from Masterforce, since there was also a human Pretender in the film - another welcome move. Both Godbomber and human Pretenders were top-notch TF concepts worth pinching, and they showed good taste for doing so.
What else? Oh yeah, credit to Bay and his writers for recognising that no-one would ever buy Optimus Prime dying and still being dead at the end of the film. Everyone knows he comes back, so let's get it all done in the one film and save time.
Some nice threads left dangling, in particular the fact that Jetfire was simply the nearest ancient TF to where they happened to be at the time. I'd love to see them go find the others in a further sequel, if they are as interesting people as Jetfire (compared with the other robots in the film). I'd also love to see the Pretender concept explored further (and also binary-bonding). Soundwave was also an interesting presence still up there.
I couldn't care less about seeing Megatron and Starscream escape at the end to fight another day, though. Since they have been dull to watch in two films, I wouldn't expect that to change in a third. And I don't really regret that we didn't see much dialogue from Ironhide, Ratchet, Sideswipe, Jolt and Arcee. Better to leave them just as heroic robot warriors than spoil them by making them comedy characters, which is all Bay and co. seem to know how to do when trying to give them personalities. But that's fine - I don't want them to be made too human anyway - keep 'em alien and aloof.
Wheelie, I have no strong feelings about. But Jetfire - I don't know what it was about him I liked so much. Maybe the blend of wisdom and a sense of humour. So refreshingly different from the likes of Kup.
As for Fallen Dave - alas, I can barely remember anything about his contribution to the film. Why they made him a separate character from Megatron, I have no idea. But I like the idea that the original TF empire was noble, and avoided harming planets where there was life, and that it was a minority, an anomaly that deviated and became corrupt. I like that approach much better than the bleakness of the G2 Empire. Nice also for Sam to meet the Autobots' ancestors in the Matrix.
Didn't at all like the way Prime killed Demolishor/Wheelbot in cold blood. That was more Rodimus than Optimus.
Liked all the non-humanoid robot modes, particularly Demolishor and Ravage.
That's it from me for now!
Martin
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Stomski
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YOU INTERRUPTED MY SPEECH!! But don't worry. It won't happen again.
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Post by Stomski on Jun 19, 2009 14:12:59 GMT
But please don't credit later TF series with the inspiration for this Godbomber was my initial thought when it happened, but character wise we're looking at Unicron Trilogy, surely? ps Megan Fox slow motion running.
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Post by Bogatan on Jun 19, 2009 14:36:05 GMT
Not seen masterforce so cant compare the combining thing there, frankly I'd hope the Masterforce approach was more interesting than the slow nightmare of the cybertron use. My brother hated Jetfire for some reason. I am torn, He came in the same bracket as the twins and wheelie, the comedy characters. They all reminded me of the aliens from MIB. Not a bad thing, but Jetfire also reminded me too much of the pirates from Pirates of the Caribean.
Doctorbot commanding "the small one" stripped for parts to fix Megatron was great but it looked as though it was just the spark that was being used when later it becomes clear most of the body was used, the shot could have been clearer. Also I can only assume that while down there they fixed up the other cons from the first movie but I missed a mention of that if there was one.
And Barricade the only con to get much screen time and survive the first film is not shown once.
Agent Pearce is invinsible.
Andy
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 19, 2009 17:41:01 GMT
Why is "Colonel Sharpe" who was in command of the airbase that got flattened by Blackout at the start of the first film still alive and now apparently a General or somesuch? I didn't catch his name, so not sure it was the same character. Was there an actor shortage or something?
The Twins got the same treatment as Barricade at the end. Did they die off-screen? Who knows!
(Who cares?)
I would certainly not lump Jetfire with the "comedy characters". I think he had more substance character-wise.
Martin
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jun 19, 2009 19:04:00 GMT
TF Archive has noticed the most important thing of all: YAY.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 19, 2009 19:15:20 GMT
More thoughts - glad they didn't try to 'explain' Arcee. The way they've left it, I can continue seeing all the TFs as without gender - Arcee just happens to be a robot with female holograms and a female voice, who therefore gets referred to as 'she' in human speak.
Martin
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Stomski
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YOU INTERRUPTED MY SPEECH!! But don't worry. It won't happen again.
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Post by Stomski on Jun 19, 2009 19:48:51 GMT
Another thought- Because I managed to avoid a lot of details about the film, including all trailers etc, I had no clue what the line up of Autobots and Decepticons were. This meant that everytime there was a new vehicle on screen, I was asking myself "Will that be one?".
Case in point was that there was a close up of a fire engine and immediately I thought it would be Inferno. Which does mean that Bay has at least done the job of putting robots in disguise right.
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Post by Bogatan on Jun 19, 2009 19:58:16 GMT
Why is "Colonel Sharpe" who was in command of the airbase that got flattened by Blackout at the start of the first film still alive and now apparently a General or somesuch? Thats Agent Pearce from 24, like I said the guys invinsible. The only guy to survive a whole 7 days of Jack Bauer and now it seems Blackouts bad mood. I really felt all the new characters of importance were played for laughs including Jetfire, he was just an important plot device so had to have none joke lines too. But thats just me. As for Arcee I wasn't bothered about the gender thing I was more curious if all 3 were Arcee, or drones or different characters it seemed possibly interesting. Andy
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Post by Bogatan on Jun 19, 2009 20:01:58 GMT
Another thought- Because I managed to avoid a lot of details about the film, including all trailers etc, I had no clue what the line up of Autobots and Decepticons were. This meant that everytime there was a new vehicle on screen, I was asking myself "Will that be one?". Case in point was that there was a close up of a fire engine and immediately I thought it would be Inferno. Which does mean that Bay has at least done the job of putting robots in disguise right. I did exactly the same thing. It was a lot of fun guessing where new one would appear from. I did completely miss Jolt or whoever it was I dont even know what vehicle mode I was looking for. Andy
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jun 19, 2009 20:19:35 GMT
As for Arcee I wasn't bothered about the gender thing I was more curious if all 3 were Arcee, or drones or different characters it seemed possibly interesting. They're all Arcee yet the toys aren't all Arcee. Bizarre. Is it true Arcee's a combiner?
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Post by The Doctor on Jun 19, 2009 22:40:00 GMT
Didn't think it was that great. I enjoyed the first film much more. That had a lot more oomph and life to it (and a better score too). Effects are very good yet lack the 'wow' factor of the first one. Not sure why exactly. Perhaps because I felt I had seen it before? I just felt unmoved. The comedic tone felt very lowest common denominator to me. Oh look, some dogs humping. How hilarious. Every college scene was painful to watch, even allowing for the director and writers previous pedigree.
Had it's moments. Megatron and Fallen Dave were nicely silly and Jetfire had wondered in from some other (far more entertaining) movie. The quality of the movie shot through the roof whenever he was on screen. Starscream was his usual self from other TF media, but at least he had some personality and interplay with Megatron so I liked him here and was glad he survived. Simmons, who annoyed me in the last movie, fitted in much better here and I liked him in this context. The actor was putting in a much more consistent performance.
But overall, I was pretty bored.
I enjoyed the prequel stories Defiance and The Veiled Threat much more, to be honest. They had more interesting plots, better characters and were more fun.
-Ralph
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kayevcee
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Post by kayevcee on Jun 19, 2009 23:58:16 GMT
When the Scots crew go to see this in IMAX I may sit at the aisle just so I can go outside any time there's a scene with Sam's mum. In fact I would be okay with just going in half an hour late as arguably the worst parts of the film happen then. Like Martin I was extremely bothered by Prime casually executing a crippled and captured enemy. 'This ain't your father's Optimus Prime!' You got that right.
All in all, I found ROTF to be unexpectedly shit. It had some high points- very high, in fact, but they were sticking out of the primary sedimentation tank of a metaphorical sewage works. Like Ralph I enjoyed Simmons' performance a lot more than last time, and it was nice to see that Megatron had grown a personality while he was on the sea bed, and I don't think I was as bothered by the twins as a lot of people will be. Good thing, too, as they had more screen time and more honest-to-Primus characterisation than the rest of the Autobot cast put together.
Another thing that bothered me was the 'Beast Machines' feel to the storyline, in that it seemed like the writers had been ordered not to watch the previous film so they could do something completely new with only the vaguest idea of what came before. Which is strange considering it was the same guys who wrote the last one. While I enjoyed Star Trek, I really hope they don't get asked back for TF:3.
I know that came out pretty negative-sounding, especially for me, but I guess I just didn't enjoy it.
-Nick
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 20, 2009 6:52:46 GMT
Thats Agent Pearce from 24, like I said the guys invinsible. Ah, I thought you meant 'invisible', not 'invincible'. I hadn't a clue what you were talking about, so I just shrugged and figured, "So there's an invisible character in this film who I didn't notice because he was invisible." Jolt - yeah, I think the blue car showed up for the first time after Prime got killed, and I was thinking, "Who's that supposed to be?" for the next hour or so until he was mentioned by name near the end when they needed to electrify Jetfire's bits and pieces. More thoughts - Prime's Autobot symbol parachutes made me smile. Very James Bond. Interesting to hear Nick say he would happily miss the first half hour. For me, the lowest point of the film came after the first half hour when Megatron was brought back and had that scene with the Fallen and Starscream (on Cybertron?). It just lacked life. And I know that after Sam's mum on drugs that's saying quite a lot, but this was worse. It's why I really, really want the live-action series kept on Earth. On Earth, you can have all sorts of interesting robots-in-disguise gimmicks - Pretenders, Insecticons, museum pieces, toy cars, kitchen appliances... As soon as the TFs leave Earth, they become boring and mundane, and are no longer fun. I felt that the new film was much less a film of two halves than the first one. In the first film, the first half was much better than the second, with only non-speaking, alien TFs - Bumblebee, Scorponok, Blackout, Frenzy and Barricade, ending with that wonderful arrival on Earth sequence. Then the Autobots started talking, became too human, and all the mystery was gone. The rest of the film was just jokes and action. The second film had the scary/mysterious infiltrating alien bits more interspersed with over-humanised TFs throughout the film - Soundwave, Ravage and his pal, Alice the Pretender, Scalpel, the Insecticons, they all had that interesting robots-amongst-us vibe. Though again, they were more in the first half, but diluted by over-humanised TFs. I agree with Ralph that Jetfire seems to have wandered in from a better film, but disagree about Megatron, Starscream and the Fallen being entertaining - for me they also seem to have wandered in from another film, one with no interesting ideas whatsoever. Jetfire survived, right? Didn't Ratchet or someone take his spark/brain into safe-keeping or something when he vacated his body? Martin
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Post by Bogatan on Jun 20, 2009 8:58:28 GMT
Thats Agent Pearce from 24, like I said the guys invinsible. Ah, I thought you meant 'invisible', not 'invincible'. I hadn't a clue what you were talking about, so I just shrugged and figured, "So there's an invisible character in this film who I didn't notice because he was invisible." Interesting to hear Nick say he would happily miss the first half hour. For me, the lowest point of the film came after the first half hour when Megatron was brought back and had that scene with the Fallen and Starscream (on Cybertron?). Jetfire survived, right? Didn't Ratchet or someone take his spark/brain into safe-keeping or something when he vacated his body? Martin D'oh, knew it didnt look right but didn't have the energy to work out why. I think it was meant to be the Moon on board a crashed vessel, but since no space ship has ever been shown in this series I could be wrong. I assumed Jetfire was dead as otherwise the death toll for the autobots was some generic Arcee or two. But you could be right, probably will depend on the writers wanting to bring him back or not. Andy
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Jun 20, 2009 9:14:59 GMT
This film has well and truly established what we already knew from the Marvel comics, that TFs can almost always return from the dead. Megatron has returned from the dead, Prime has returned from the dead, Jetfire has once already (Sam used the Allspark shard to revive him in the museum). There were robots in this film who looked very much like Blackout, Bonecrusher and Brawl/Devastator. TFs are hard to kill and easy to bring back - and anyone who doesn't like it should confine themselves to the G2 comic mini-series.
I didn't like the way the Deceps kept coming and going from Earth. In the first film, TFs crashed and were then here for good. We never got to see what sort of equipment was needed to launch a protoform into space, whether a TF could do it under its own power or what. In the sequel, the Deceps arrive to get Megatron, then leave Earth, then return to attack Sam in America, then leave Earth, then land again in Egypt. How do land-based robots manage to get back into space?
I liked Jetfire 'Space Bridge' ability though. Bit of Skywarp thrown into the mix there.
Martin
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dyrl
Empty
Transforming robots are no match for combat waitresses from the future!
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Post by dyrl on Jun 20, 2009 12:20:27 GMT
Just for clarification - Jazz is dead still? I won't be seeing this until the second week of July, but it is interesting to read all the commentary Pete
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jun 20, 2009 12:39:11 GMT
There were robots in this film who looked very much like Blackout, Bonecrusher and Brawl/Devastator. I dunno about the other two, but Blackout's probably this other guy instead.
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Post by blueshift on Jun 20, 2009 16:31:52 GMT
I've seen it now, yay. I'll write my thoughts up shortly. Overall it was okay if a bit of a confusing mess. Nothing particularly brilliant, but nothing particularly horrid either.
One thing though. If Fallen Dave told Jetfire that the Matrix was in Egypt somewhere, why did he have the Decepticons scouring the globe for it?
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Post by blueshift on Jun 20, 2009 19:28:03 GMT
I've seen it now, yay. I'll write my thoughts up shortly. Overall it was okay if a bit of a confusing mess. Nothing particularly brilliant, but nothing particularly horrid either. One thing though. If Fallen Dave told Jetfire that the Matrix was in Egypt somewhere, why did he have the Decepticons scouring the globe for it? EDIT: My low-spoiler review: www.redshirt.co.uk/media/transformers-revenge-of-the-fallen/
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primenova
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Post by primenova on Jun 20, 2009 19:59:47 GMT
I'm waiting to see how much we see Soundwave is used. seeing he should be moving around in his Cybertron Soundwave/Vector Prime like jet mode & then becoming a satellite in orbit to become transmitter for the planet bound cons.
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Post by blueshift on Jun 20, 2009 20:06:17 GMT
I really liked the use of Soundwave. They did seem to forget about him in the second half of the film though. But he was pretty clearly defined at least.
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jun 20, 2009 22:42:12 GMT
Oh, so you're the guy who spawned JAaM?
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primenova
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Post by primenova on Jun 21, 2009 7:31:47 GMT
Wouldn't it be good if at the end of the film after the credits you had Soundwave in orbit broadcasting - but making the scene like the end of the animtaed movie with Unicrons head.
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Post by blueshift on Jun 21, 2009 7:43:35 GMT
Yup, for my sins!
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jun 21, 2009 12:44:00 GMT
Aren't you also the guy who does Fulcrum on one or more TF RPGs?
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Post by blueshift on Jun 21, 2009 15:12:12 GMT
Aren't you also the guy who does Fulcrum on one or more TF RPGs? No, I'm Blueshift, Fulcrum is my buddy who lives down London way.
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Post by charlesrocketboy on Jun 21, 2009 15:54:24 GMT
No, I'm Blueshift, Fulcrum is my buddy who lives down London way. I suppose I should've gotten a clue from the name! (I remember the Fulcrum character after going to a convention in the States and getting drawn into reading out the World's Worst Pornfic with Fulcrum in it)
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Post by Mark_Stevenson on Jun 21, 2009 16:13:55 GMT
Saw it at a midnight showing on Thursday. It's clunky, plotless, overlong, mysoginistic in the extreme, comically right-wing and very dumb. Once again, there is a sickening amount of military fetishism on display - if I see yet another aircraft carrier montage this side of the grave it'll be too soon.
But, in spite of itself, it was a hell of a lot of fun. More robots, more action. Jetfire is far and away the star of the show, and it was nice to see a return to the old Megatron / Starscream relationship. I doubt I'll see it at the cinema again (although I might give the IMAX a spin) and I'm probably less likely to skip through most of it on DVD.
Mx
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