Star Wars

[blueshift]

Dec 28, 2015 10:44:01 GMT Shockprowl said:

Dec 28, 2015 0:29:18 GMT blueshift said:

That's not a good thing though! I still maintain that they should have kept Qui-Gonn alive and replaced Dooku with him. It's the same character anyway! And get rid of Grevious, or have him as the no. 2 villain in 2 and 3.

Or... anything. God.

God.

Quoted for Truth, Blue', you brainy son-of-a-blaster.

Qui-Gon being manipulated into turning against the Republic would have been a convincing way for Anakin's fall to begin. Dooku could have still been in it, as a Sith. It also lacked a real motivation for Anakin to hate the Jedi. They needed to abandon or forbid him freeing the slaves on Tatoine (which he said he wanted to do but never did), with Obi-Wan the only one willing to help, which in turn would have allowed Obi-Wan to later convince Anakin to leave and help fight in the Clone Wars.

Or if nothing else, Dooku shouldn't have secretly been a sith, and his cover story about being a Jedi who has raised an army against the evil he sees in the senate should have been true, as that was interesting.

[Shockprowl]

Yes I like that. Or that would have been Qui-Gon's role, with Dooku the secret Sith helping him, only to later betray him... or something.

[blueshift]

Dec 28, 2015 10:51:13 GMT Shockprowl said:

Yes I like that. Or that would have been Qui-Gon's role, with Dooku the secret Sith helping him, only to later betray him... or something.

At first, it was so obvious it should have been him I wondered if they changed the plan late in the day as Liam Neeson was an artist of principles and only wanted to do one film due to his artistic integrity.

And then you see the rest of his career and ha ha no.

[Shockprowl]

I think for me, the main problem with the prequels is that they don't lead into Episode 4 well. There are plots holes, and things that are said in 4 that just didn't happen or just don't fit. It's a mess.

[Bogatan]

After rewatching a few weeks back I came to the conclusion that Maul shouldnt have died at the end of episode 1. everything largely plays out the same except Maul takes Dookus Sith role till the beginning of episode 3.

Even if the first film wasnt remotely altered bring Maul back at the beginning of two being saved from the pit and introduce Grevious. Grevious teaches Maul to function with a cybernetic body and Maul teaches him to fight with lightsabers.

Introduce Dooku in much the same way but dont reveal the Sith part. Make it look like hes been played by the Sith and only realises this when kidnapped by Maul at the end of the film. The fight plays out as before except with Maul instead of Dooku fighting. Yoda intervenes to save them and Dooku, but preferably in a no lightsaber way (that should be saved)

Episode 3 Opens as before but again Maul in Dookus role. At least now grevious doesnt come out of nowhere.

Dooku is now on the Jedi council and seen bonding with Anakin. Anakin then reveals the truth to him instead of Mace Windu. Dooku then sends Windu with a slightly modified story that results in a more believable confrontation with Anakin and Windu. The major change is towards the end. Dooku goes to face The Emporer with Yoda only to betray him in some way that ends up with his death and Yoda genuienely in a position where he couldnt just turn around and try to kill the Emporer again. Likewise Grevious saves anakin at the cost of his own life, which makes more sense than Obi Wan just walking away from the still alive anakin.

I dont even know where to start with fixing the love story parts.

[Toph]

But if they did that, then he couldn't have been restored in Clone Wars and reintroduced with Savage Opress, and actually became a functioning and interesting character, instead of the most overrated and overblown character in SW history.

[Bogatan]

Eh, I enjoyed Maul in CW but it wouldnt have stopped them using the character in other ways and it wouldn't have stopped them introducing Savage Opress either.

[Toph]

But they would have had two additional movies of horrendous writing and terrible characterization to overcome.
They worked a pure bloody miracle on Anakin. They could probably have pulled off another miracle, but the way it happened, they didn't have to.

[Stomski]

I get the feeling with Grievous that Lucas was looking at concept drawings that his team had been putting together, he saw a cyborg with 4 lightsabres and thought it was so cool and would push ILM so wrote it into the script.

Maul should always have been a subsidiary character, enjoying the same mystique as Boba Fett, although if he revealed a little more when he and Qui-Gon are separated by those red force field doohickeys, in a manner taunting him whilst Qui-Gon meditated it would have been interesting. It wouldn't have affected the plot as Qui-Gon would never had got the opportunity to tell Obi-Wan what he had just been told.

Main issue with the prequels is throwing away of so much that was hinted at in the OT.
- Mythos of the force based in science
- Obi-Wan and Anakin's meeting and friendship
- Darth Vader's turn to the darkside seemed one of petulant child, rather than lust for power
- Darth Vader hunting down and murdering the Jedi didn't really happen. Order 66 played much more of a part (although really it's only those Jedi that are members of the Jedi order/temple that are working with the Clone troops, there are surely plenty more that Vader then hunts down in the time between III and IV?)
- The dark times of the Empire don't really seem that dark and we didn't get to see them. I always kind of felt the dark times started and Anakin hadn't fallen to the dark side yet and they worked together against the Empire until his fall.
- The clone wars seemed a little, well, meh. Clones vs Robots? Seems like a way to showcase ILM's abilities to me.

Oh and the retconning of certain OT characters - Boba/Jango, Chewbacca, R2D2 and C3PO was totally unnecessary fan service. Jar-Jar should have served the purpose of the droids in the OT, as a low status character acting as a vehicle for narration.

The choreography in EpII and III is also terrible. The confrontation of Palpatine a particular low point, but even the Anakin/Obi-Wan battle is like 2 kids playing swords.

And then there's Ian McDiarmid's portrayal of Sidious. He's reduced in EpIII to a B-Movie villain, not the malevolent, scheming, powerful Sith we see in EpVI, lacking subtlety and the gravity he should have. (Except in the scene at the theatre in conversation with Anakin.)

[Shockprowl]

Let's face it, there're only three Star Wars films... (and even they had fucking Ewoks...)

[Shockprowl]

(and Obi-wan dying and becoming "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" yet doing NOTHING with that power...)

[Shockprowl]

(veeeeerrrry dodgy exhaust port placement in yer moon-sized space-stations...)

[Shockprowl]

(A young farm-boy pilot hero killing TENS OF THOUSANDS of people. Yes, enemy combatants who were about to kill them and had already destroyed a planet, but still, yikes... emotional fall-out? Snog your sister...?)

[Shockprowl]

I love Star Wars.

[blueshift]

Dec 28, 2015 23:08:28 GMT Shockprowl said:

(A young farm-boy pilot hero killing TENS OF THOUSANDS of people. Yes, enemy combatants who were about to kill them and had already destroyed a planet, but still, yikes... emotional fall-out? Snog your sister...?)

Old grizzled war criminal convinces young man to join his terrorist army. Meets up with criminal gun runners; together they bomb a government building killing thousands, and then he gets off with his sister.

LEGENDS OF STAR WARS.

[Baron B of Triple B]

Dec 28, 2015 22:12:38 GMT Stomski said:

I get the feeling with Grievous that Lucas was looking at concept drawings that his team had been putting together, he saw a cyborg with 4 lightsabres and thought it was so cool and would push ILM so wrote it into the script.

Maul should always have been a subsidiary character, enjoying the same mystique as Boba Fett, although if he revealed a little more when he and Qui-Gon are separated by those red force field doohickeys, in a manner taunting him whilst Qui-Gon meditated it would have been interesting. It wouldn't have affected the plot as Qui-Gon would never had got the opportunity to tell Obi-Wan what he had just been told.

Main issue with the prequels is throwing away of so much that was hinted at in the OT.
- Mythos of the force based in science
- Obi-Wan and Anakin's meeting and friendship
- Darth Vader's turn to the darkside seemed one of petulant child, rather than lust for power
- Darth Vader hunting down and murdering the Jedi didn't really happen. Order 66 played much more of a part (although really it's only those Jedi that are members of the Jedi order/temple that are working with the Clone troops, there are surely plenty more that Vader then hunts down in the time between III and IV?)
- The dark times of the Empire don't really seem that dark and we didn't get to see them. I always kind of felt the dark times started and Anakin hadn't fallen to the dark side yet and they worked together against the Empire until his fall.
- The clone wars seemed a little, well, meh. Clones vs Robots? Seems like a way to showcase ILM's abilities to me.

Oh and the retconning of certain OT characters - Boba/Jango, Chewbacca, R2D2 and C3PO was totally unnecessary fan service. Jar-Jar should have served the purpose of the droids in the OT, as a low status character acting as a vehicle for narration.

The choreography in EpII and III is also terrible. The confrontation of Palpatine a particular low point, but even the Anakin/Obi-Wan battle is like 2 kids playing swords.

And then there's Ian McDiarmid's portrayal of Sidious. He's reduced in EpIII to a B-Movie villain, not the malevolent, scheming, powerful Sith we see in EpVI, lacking subtlety and the gravity he should have. (Except in the scene at the theatre in conversation with Anakin.)

The scene where he's trying to convince Anakin to save him he turned into a pathetic child begging for his mummy. Then starts mincing about shouting 'YOUUUUUUUU' at Mace Windu.

[Baron B of Triple B]

Dec 28, 2015 23:03:48 GMT Shockprowl said:

(and Obi-wan dying and becoming "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" yet doing NOTHING with that power...)

It's possibly metaphorical power he's talking about. His death is one of the driving forces behind Luke.

[Stomski]

Dec 28, 2015 23:16:57 GMT Baron B of Triple B said:

The scene where he's trying to convince Anakin to save him he turned into a pathetic child begging for his mummy. Then starts mincing about shouting 'YOUUUUUUUU' at Mace Windu.

Well it's my interpretation he was playing at being weak to get Anakin to turn on Mace Windu, but the way he plays it is horrible.

Also that his physical change was due to the battle...? I'd rather think he couldn't keep up his force illusion, and that the disfigurement was his real appearance due to years of being consumed by the darkside.

Oh, Leia saying she has memories of her mother, however vague. Let's argue that this was due to her having Force visions rather than real memories due to the fact Padma dies in childbirth, but what we got differs from what was implied.

And I nearly forgot - Yoda trained Obi-Wan. Yes Yoda instructs most younglings in the Jedi Temple, but the implication in EpV is that they had a master/apprentice relationship that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon have.

[Baron B of Triple B]

Dec 29, 2015 7:10:16 GMT Stomski said:

Dec 28, 2015 23:16:57 GMT Baron B of Triple B said:

The scene where he's trying to convince Anakin to save him he turned into a pathetic child begging for his mummy. Then starts mincing about shouting 'YOUUUUUUUU' at Mace Windu.

Well it's my interpretation he was playing at being weak to get Anakin to turn on Mace Windu, but the way he plays it is horrible.

Also that his physical change was due to the battle...? I'd rather think he couldn't keep up his force illusion, and that the disfigurement was his real appearance due to years of being consumed by the darkside.

Oh, Leia saying she has memories of her mother, however vague. Let's argue that this was due to her having Force visions rather than real memories due to the fact Padma dies in childbirth, but what we got differs from what was implied.

And I nearly forgot - Yoda trained Obi-Wan. Yes Yoda instructs most younglings in the Jedi Temple, but the implication in EpV is that they had a master/apprentice relationship that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon have.

I get that. However he's spent 2 films convincing Anakin he's powerful beyond belief and can teach Anakin that power. Now all of a sudden he's a pathetic mess who's begging for sympathy.

It's not even that angle they go for when Anakin turns on Windu. Anakin shouts 'I need him'. So he's not thinking about showing him mercy or that Windu is going too far, he's just thinking about the power to save Padme that Sidious has promised him. So all they needed to do in that scene is have Sidious remind Anakin what he can do for him so it's best to keep him alive.

This guy is on his knees in tears after facing 1 Jedi but hes telling me he knows powers that nobody else does? Alarm bells really should be ringing at that point.

[Stomski]

Well, Sidious faced 4 Jedi really. Windu, Fisto and those other two chumps, but he dispatched the first two with such ease and even Fisto didn't really put up that much of a fight that we can count it as just the one.

[Shockprowl]

Dec 28, 2015 23:21:12 GMT Baron B of Triple B said:

Dec 28, 2015 23:03:48 GMT Shockprowl said:

(and Obi-wan dying and becoming "more powerful than you can possibly imagine" yet doing NOTHING with that power...)

It's possibly metaphorical power he's talking about. His death is one of the driving forces behind Luke.

That's not bad, actually, but I don't buy it. Yoda and Obi-Wan pretty much give up, and let a young boy do their work for them.

[Bogatan]

Dec 29, 2015 8:46:19 GMT Baron B of Triple B said:

Dec 29, 2015 7:10:16 GMT Stomski said:

Well it's my interpretation he was playing at being weak to get Anakin to turn on Mace Windu, but the way he plays it is horrible.

Also that his physical change was due to the battle...? I'd rather think he couldn't keep up his force illusion, and that the disfigurement was his real appearance due to years of being consumed by the darkside.

Oh, Leia saying she has memories of her mother, however vague. Let's argue that this was due to her having Force visions rather than real memories due to the fact Padma dies in childbirth, but what we got differs from what was implied.

And I nearly forgot - Yoda trained Obi-Wan. Yes Yoda instructs most younglings in the Jedi Temple, but the implication in EpV is that they had a master/apprentice relationship that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon have.

I get that. However he's spent 2 films convincing Anakin he's powerful beyond belief and can teach Anakin that power. Now all of a sudden he's a pathetic mess who's begging for sympathy.

It's not even that angle they go for when Anakin turns on Windu. Anakin shouts 'I need him'. So he's not thinking about showing him mercy or that Windu is going too far, he's just thinking about the power to save Padme that Sidious has promised him. So all they needed to do in that scene is have Sidious remind Anakin what he can do for him so it's best to keep him alive.

This guy is on his knees in tears after facing 1 Jedi but hes telling me he knows powers that nobody else does? Alarm bells really should be ringing at that point.

Just one more scene that makes little sense. I always took it that Palpatine was feigning weakness to force Anakin to make a call, but you're right, its not play that should convince Anakin that Palpatine can save Padme. Or it wouldnt be if the prequels hadn't turned Anakin in to a gibbering idiot.

Alternatively Palpatine could be in real trouble, the problem is that at no point during the 3 films do they establish that Windu is that tough. He faces of against Dooku in Clones but is interupted by droids. I think that fact Palpatine dispatches the other 3 Jedi so easily is supposed to show Windu is stronger, but that never works its just makes the other jedi look like generic redshirts. Essentially you are asked to assume Windu is badass because hes played by Jackson who basically only plays badass.

Oh and the Leias memories - Is there anything in the films themselves that says she knows she is adopted? (except for the lack of shock when Luke tells he hes her brother). If there isnt shes just talking about her adopted mother who must have died when she was young.

And Obi Won - He lies or abrieviates most of everything he tells Luke. I dont think its a stretch that saying Yoda taught me is easier than Yoda taught Quigon, who I have never mentioned, who taught me. Besides Yoda had bee naround so long he esstetially did train every other Jedi either directly or indirectly.

[Stomski]

But that's the problem. You can technically fit the prequels into the little info we're given in the OT if you use a slightly different point of view (of which many of our truths cling to), but most peoples hope of the past leading to the rise of Sidious was wildly different to what we got.

And it's a damn shame.

I would love Disney to consider the prequels as EU fodder and redo them, heh.

[The Doctor]

Amusingly the Topps DW sticker album currently available features the original trilogy and The Force Awakens. Completely ignores the Prequel movies!

-Ralph

[Philip Ayres]

the original Red Leader has left us.

epicstream.com/news/Star-Wars-Actor-Drewe-Henley-Red-Leader-Dies-At-75

I read his obit elsewhere on the net earlier in the week and was surprised when I found out who he used to be married to!

[The Doctor]

Noooo, not Red Leader.

-Ralph

[Philip Ayres]

Erik Bauersfeld, the uncredited voice for both Bib Fortuna and forum favourite Admiral Ackbar, has died aged 93.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Bauersfeld

[The Doctor]

Nooooooo.

-Ralph

[Pinwig]

Death is the ultimate trap.

[The Doctor]

Nice to see his passing was one of the top stories on the BBC News app this morning on their front page!

-Ralph