Politics

[Andy Turnbull]

Feb 18, 2019 18:18:36 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

Feb 18, 2019 17:16:16 GMT Fortmax2020 said:

Good on them I say.

Me too. I'm hoping Remainer Tories follow their example.

Need a decent-sized party (or looser grouping/alliance) in the centre ground of politics as both big parties have moved further to the edges.

Martin

I think British politics suffered immensely the day Nick Clegg hopped into bed with Cameron, and destroyed the Liberal Democrats as any kind of credible alternative.

Saw Dominic Grieve raise his head above the parapets and criticise Brexit and May. Maybe he will follow suit.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Or the Remainer Tories may threaten to follow suit in order to stop Theresa May from pandering to Rees-Mogg & co.

Number one priority right now has to be avoiding a no-deal Brexit. Number two priority is getting an informed people's vote that allows the three year's worth of 18-to-20-year-olds who were denied a vote on their future in 2016 a chance to have their say - and erase the votes of those sadly no longer with us. A proper opposition would have had this as official party policy. Unfortunately, both main parties are obsessed with pleasing the 52% of three years ago.

Martin

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Feb 18, 2019 18:18:36 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

I'm hoping Remainer Tories follow their example.

Goodo.

Martin

[drmick]

Feb 18, 2019 18:33:28 GMT Andy Turnbull said:

Feb 18, 2019 18:18:36 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

Me too. I'm hoping Remainer Tories follow their example.

Need a decent-sized party (or looser grouping/alliance) in the centre ground of politics as both big parties have moved further to the edges.

Martin

I think British politics suffered immensely the day Nick Clegg hopped into bed with Cameron, and destroyed the Liberal Democrats as any kind of credible alternative.

This. It's crazy how far reaching the consequences of that merger have been. And to think that there could have just as easily been a Labour-Liberal pact. Still, at least Nick got a Knighthood and a lucrative post-politics career out of it.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Feb 21, 2019 19:47:31 GMT drmick said:

And to think that there could have just as easily been a Labour-Liberal pact.

Then the Lib Dems would have lost their right-of-centre voters instead of losing their left-of-centre voters. They had to form a coalition with someone as the country needed a government in the financial crisis, and they were going to dismay a lot of their voters whichever way they went. Don't forget Labour were also a somewhat toxic brand having just presided over the credit crunch and Blair's fall from favour in relation to the Iraq war. They had messed some stuff up big time on their watch. And the Conservatives got more votes and seats than Labour in the election.

I'm not saying I liked the coalition government, or wouldn't have preferred a Labour-Liberal coalition. I'm just saying it wasn't as simple as people sometimes make out.

And the Conservatives were only able to hold a Brexit referendum once they were in sole charge of things.

Martin

[Andy Turnbull]

They could have left the Conservatives to have formed a minority government, and that way could have blocked and stopped a whole host of unpleasant things.

Andy

[Bogatan]

At the very least I cant understand how they weren't able to stick to their guns to get the proportional representation referendum they wanted and to block a tuition fee rise. If you are going to enable austerity on this level you should at least have made them pay something.

[blueshift]

Feb 21, 2019 23:20:47 GMT Bogatan said:

At the very least I cant understand how they weren't able to stick to their guns to get the proportional representation referendum they wanted and to block a tuition fee rise. If you are going to enable austerity on this level you should at least have made them pay something.

There was an alternative voting referendum in 2011, or are you thinking of something else?

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Feb 21, 2019 23:05:57 GMT Andy Turnbull said:

They could have left the Conservatives to have formed a minority government, and that way could have blocked and stopped a whole host of unpleasant things.

I think one of their problems was that by opting to influence the programme of government by being around the Cabinet table, rather than by voting against stuff from the opposition benches, the public didn't actually get to see the moderating effect the Lib Dems had on government policies, and how different a Conservative majority government would have been. People assume that because any good the Lib Dems did was behind the scenes, they didn't do any.

Some say Cameron only put the Brexit referendum in his 2010 manifesto because he was expecting another coalition with the Lib Dems that would force it to be dropped.

I've just checked. A Labour-Liberal coalition in 2010 would have fallen short of a majority in the House of Commons. They'd have needed other parties on board.

But anyway, at the end of the coalition government in 2015 the people decided to punish the Lib Dems and reward the Conservatives with a full majority, and Labour, having been in opposition for 5 years, lost seats. Labour have now come second in three consecutive general elections under three different leaders. Like it or not, and I don't, the Conservatives have consistently been the most popular party with UK voters since Tony Blair, even with the current Brexit shambles, going by the polls, which is a damning indictment on the opposition.

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/02/20/14-would-vote-independent-group

General election results (326 seats needed for majority):

2005 - Blair 355, Howard 198, Kennedy 62, SNP 6
2010 - Cameron 306, Brown 258, Clegg 57, SNP 6
2015 - Cameron 330, Miliband 232, SNP 56, Clegg 8
2017 - May 317, Corbyn 262, SNP 35, Farron 12

I'd say having the Conservatives win three consecutive elections is more down to failures by Labour to convince the country they'd be better than it is to the actions of the Lib Dems. The government's such a shambles, any decent opposition out of power since 2010 would be way out ahead in the polls now. Labour has fewer MPs now than it had when Brown got kicked out of Number 10 in 2010.

Anyway, current Parliamentary arithmetic very interesting at this crucial time:

May 314, Corbyn 246, SNP 35, Cable 11, Independent Group 11, DUP 10, others 13.

Martin

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Well, this is going to be a week.

Martin

[Bogatan]

Im sure they'll find some way to avoid making any firm decision till later. They are getting very good at it.

[Bogatan]

Feb 21, 2019 23:54:02 GMT blueshift said:

Feb 21, 2019 23:20:47 GMT Bogatan said:

At the very least I cant understand how they weren't able to stick to their guns to get the proportional representation referendum they wanted and to block a tuition fee rise. If you are going to enable austerity on this level you should at least have made them pay something.

There was an alternative voting referendum in 2011, or are you thinking of something else?

Missed this.

As I remember it the eventual referendum question was so watered down/flawed that even the Liberal Democrats barely got behind it. Though I could be completely misremembering it.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

"Now that's what I call a dead deal."

"No, no... No, it's stunned!"

"STUNNED?!?"

"Yeah! You stunned it, just as it was wakin' up! Withdrawal agreements stun easily, major."

"Um... now look... now look, mate, I've definitely 'ad enough of this. That deal is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not 'alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein' tired and shagged out following a prolonged Parliamentary debate."

"Well, it's... it's, ah... probably pining for Brussels."

"PININ' for BRUSSELS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that? Look, why did it fall flat on its back the moment I got it home?"

"The withdrawal agreement prefers keepin' on its back! Remarkable deal, id'nit, squire? Lovely backstop!"

"Look, I took the liberty of examining that deal when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been on the table in the first place was that it had been NAILED there."

(pause)

"Well, o'course it was nailed there! If I hadn't nailed that deal down, it would have nuzzled up to those Government whips, bent 'em apart with its political declaration, and VOOM! Feeweeweewee!"

"'VOOM'?!? Mate, this deal wouldn't 'voom' if you put four million volts through it! It's bleedin' demised!"

"No, no! It's pining!"

"It's not pinin'! It's passed on! This deal is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet its maker! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the table it'd be pushing up the daisies! Its metabolic processes are now 'istory! It's off the twig! It's kicked the bucket! It's shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-DEAL!!"

[The Doctor]

What a night.

-Ralph

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Indeed.

Martin

[legios]

It is a complete dogs dinner, that's what it is. Mind you, if it wasn't such a serious situation the site of a conservative government that has been droning on about "returning sovereignty to parliament" having kittens because Parliament is exercising soveriegnty would be mildly hilarious.

Karl

[Fortmax2020]

Cat amongst the pigeons.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47614074

He did warn he would do this last week. And it does bail May out of another humiliation but she has only herself to blame for running the clock down.

[The Doctor]

Entirely predictable.

I am sure the BBC will ask Farage about it within astro-seconds.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

He is busy. Not leading his march. Of a couple dozen folk.

[legios]

I am kind of amused by some folk saying that the country is "now" in a constitutional crisis. Did they sleep through last week - when it was confirmed that the current government isn't even pretending to believe that Parliament is sovereign? We have been in a situation where Parliament and Government are scrabbling to determine whether Parliament remains the nominal seat of power in the UK, or whether Parliament is to become subject to government. (This would be a change to the constitutional structure of the UK of quite impressive proportions - but seems to be happening almost by accident at the moment.)

Karl

[Fortmax2020]

Much guffawing here today as Tory MPs claim they will simply ignore the Speaker and his annoying laws and precedents to get their way on holding a third vote.

Meanwhile France and Germany are "losing patience with us and not inclined to give us any extension. That would be the extension May has yet to ask for despite being told to get it by Parliament last week. And to think we only had to worry about the fringe EU countries Banks and Farage have been sucking up to.

[Fortmax2020]

I submit to this House that Tusk has just ended May. She will only get her extension if her deal passes by Friday next week.

CALM DOOOOOWWN.

[The Doctor]

The shit has not so much hit the fan as shredded the fan itself into a million pieces.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

Would the Master of the House please close the facilities on Floor 5 before the products of that facility cause any further damage!

[The Doctor]

PM "addressing the nation" at 20:15.

-Ralph

[Grand Moff Muffin]

"No, no... No, it's stunned!"

Martin

[The Doctor]

Mar 20, 2019 19:01:57 GMT The Doctor said:

PM "addressing the nation" at 20:15.

-Ralph

Wow.

A very bitter statement blaming Parliament but giving a shout-out to the DUP specifically.
No attempt at reaching out. I am not surprised but still saddened.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

Bay Bot back with a vengeance.

[legios]

The game, as they say, is a bogie. That wasn't a speech that aimed to persuade anybody to change their position - that was a speech aimed at affixing blame prior to the crash. Essentially May painted a situation of herself as an embattled "champion of the people" trying to defeat the evil Parliament who want to thwart what "the people" want. Essentially a "it wasn't me, it was them! They did it!" for the mess that is about to descend on us in coming weeks.

At this point I am inclined to say "it is over, finished." Anything other than exiting the EU on the night of 29th March would require something to pass a vote in parliament. Revoking Article 50? Needs an amendment to the law. Accepting the EU's last offer in terms of a transition deal - needs to be ratified by Parliament. Some other kind of transition deal? Would involve fresh negotiations with the EU, and an extension to the Article 50 date, and would also need to be ratified at some point. Leaving the EU without a transition deal? That is the default state if nothing else happens between now and next Friday.

On the flipside - it appears that not only the Government, but the official opposition appear to be fractured beyond repair. So at least neither of them can frell things up any further, given that they have no capacity to effectively control anything at this point. So whilst they might not make anything better - they probably won't make things much worse.

Karl

[drmick]

That's an excellent summation of where things stand.