Politics

[The Doctor]

Boris is just pulling things out his arse now. 'Social bubbles'. He rejected that idea not long ago! I saw him say it! The worry with 'social bubbles' is that many people won't understand it so everyone now thinks they can visit anyone/stay over, thus pushing the R rate up. Now Toriy backbenchers are publically saying to scrap the 2m rule. We still have over 200 deaths a day.

Not going near general retail from the 15th other than the usual supermarket shops. Anything I want continues to be bought online.

Spare a thought for folk working in retail. Next week could be very hard for them.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

R rates are either too close to or over 1 in many parts of the UK. Now is absolutely not the time to relax things but to lock things down further to halt this problem. Easing them now only extends the period they must be endured while risking a second peak.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I dunno. My dad's been living in lockdown for three months, as have I (apart from getting a front-driveway haircut from my neighbour over a month ago now). That's a long time not to see any family. We're confident both our houses are virus-free. He should be able to legally drive over and visit me on weekends, at least until I start going into the office and seeing other people at close quarters again.

If people are allowed to live together during lockdown, it's unfair for people who live alone not to be able to legally buddy up with other households, as long as they stick with them and don't keep alternating them.

Martin

[Fortmax2020]

The social bubble idea is actually not bad especially for folk living on their own who can be sure they have minimised contact such as yourself. A shame the Government dismissed it out of hand weeks ago when first suggested. Slightly annoying that we and our parents have done the same though for months now in case grandparents could visit Naomi when she was born. Alas no, we have one too many persons exposed to the same conditions to do that.

Where it is less of a good idea is as part of the ongoing trend from government to roll back the measures that have been put in place and have resulted in some level of control of the virus. Further measures of easing the Lockdown also fosters an increasingly permissive atmosphere in the public mind which compromises the effectiveness of remaining measures.

None of this is helped by the Government now just point blank denying any figures that disagrees with their politically driven aims. R above 1 in the North West? Aha! Not according to *our* figures which we refuse to publish etc.

When we went into this we were told it was for the long haul, but they seem intent on dismantling it all ahead of time to match other countries rather than admit we acted too late and our strategy has been a pig's ear.

[The Doctor]

I didn't understand a word of Johnson's word diahorrea yesterday about 'social bubbles'. This is clearer:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/11/support-bubbles-what-is-new-policy-in-england-and-how-does-it-work

-Ralph

[The Doctor]

I'll just leave this here:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/12/chief-nurse-dropped-from-no-10-briefing-for-not-backing-cummings

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

Yes, but what about Churchill??

[The Doctor]

I see today that Johnson has completely lost his fucking mind. Who the fuck saw "one metre plus" coming?? And, er, 'guidance' now instead of 'law'. Goodbye, protection for workers!

-Ralph

[Philip Ayres]

1m is the current WHO guideline. UK is one of the few countries to exceed this.

Saw this coming a few weeks back when my attention was drawn to the discrepancy!

[The Doctor]

Oh I understand one metre. I was expecting one metre. What I didn't expect (and genuinely don't understand) is 'one metre plus'.

-Ralph

[Bogatan]

For me the problem is that at 2 metres, people would keep a distance even if it wasnt 2 metres. When people underestimate 1 metre they'll be way to close.

[The Doctor]

Yes. You say anything other than 2 (or even 1) and people interpret that as 'just get close'.

I also see daily briefings in England stop as of today. Can't have any more scrutiny, eh?

Meanwhile, 2 meters remains in Scotland and Wales.

As a Scottish person living in England, I find it mad to be given conflicting advice.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

It's another major change in advice which will cause further confusion especially in the mangled state it has been delivered in. I'm dubious about the reasoning behind the change as well, particularly as it has been pushed by certain Tory factions without the visible support from medical and scientific professionals. It just feels like chipping away at the Lockdown measures which seems mad when even Johnson admits the number of new cases per day is barely reducing so we need more measures not less.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Jun 23, 2020 15:13:18 GMT The Doctor said:

As a Scottish person living in England, I find it mad to be given conflicting advice.

That's a natural consequence of devolution. Without it, the Westminster advice would be UK-wide. But legally, the rules you should follow are the rules of where you are, not where you come from. What I find annoying is that the England rules get more media coverage in Wales than the Wales rules.

As for distancing, I've personally always tried to act according to the 2-metre rule when one of the people is directly facing the other person, but 1 metre is fine if not (e.g. back to back, side by side, passing swiftly on a pavement with mouth closed). The radius of infection risk is obviously not uniform in all directions, it's greatest in front and negligible at the back. But that logic is apparently too sophisticated to be a rule put out by government.

Edit: Also, time is a factor. Right at the start of the pandemic there was reference to the risk of being together in conversation at 2 metres for a 15-minute period. But that time dimension was also dropped, apparently as being too sophisticated, leaving people with the idea that fleeting proximity of a second or two on a pavement carries the same sort of risk as sitting face to face for an entire train journey.

Martin

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Jun 23, 2020 16:57:50 GMT Fortmax2020 said:

we need more measures not less.

Problem with that is harm caused by the virus isn't the only harm being caused just now. The lockdown itself is also causing a range of forms of physical and mental harm to people the longer it goes on, from single children being deprived of contact with other children for a significant chunk of their childhood to people with no work to occupy them to victims of domestic abuse to elderly people kept apart from family members. You can't just say full lockdown until vaccine or virus gone.

Martin

[Fortmax2020]

As someone raising a new baby during lockdown without support from grandparents and friends and with reduced medical support and services I am very aware a total lockdown is not desirable let alone practical. However, we have had a relentless chipping away at it with very little clinical justification and much political.

[Grand Moff Muffin]

That's what you get for living in a democracy, I guess. The rules are pointless without the consent of the people, and that gradually decreases over time no matter how well you communicate the science.

The Black Lives Matter protesters (and the other lot) have already sent a signal that a significant segment of society are prepared to completely ignore the rules en masse. The police obviously can't arrest them all, and rightly focus on those few intent on violence. I guess in China they'd be cracked down on more strongly. And they have fewer virus cases. But at a price.

I dunno - ignore me, I'm just rambling. I suppose I'm just saying there's no clear 'right' course, except maybe with hindsight. But probably not even then.

Martin

[Fortmax2020]

The police haven't really tried to enforce any form of lockdown around here. Hence we ended up with 4000 at a rave here the other weekend where someone died. The police literally stood by and watched streams of people head down to it past them.

[The Doctor]

Today's arsehole is Matt Hancock. He could close the beaches but won't unless there is a spike in the infection rate. MORON! Don't wait until people get infected on the crowded beaches! Don't be the mayor from Jaws!

-Ralph

[bertie]

Jun 23, 2020 13:45:31 GMT The Doctor said:

Oh I understand one metre. I was expecting one metre. What I didn't expect (and genuinely don't understand) is 'one metre plus'.

-Ralph

It's custardy unclear buzzword bullshit. It basically means 1m and a facemask, I think. 1m plus some other means of deflecting the virus. Like runes or a special spell.

Elliott.

[bertie]

This shit does scare me. No one is steering the bus.

[Philip Ayres]

I've been generally avoiding Twitter in recent times but This thread makes interesting reading

[The Doctor]

Indeed.

-Ralph

[R0B0_G0D]

Jun 11, 2020 11:01:19 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

I dunno. My dad's been living in lockdown for three months, as have I (apart from getting a front-driveway haircut from my neighbour over a month ago now). That's a long time not to see any family. We're confident both our houses are virus-free. He should be able to legally drive over and visit me on weekends, at least until I start going into the office and seeing other people at close quarters again.

If people are allowed to live together during lockdown, it's unfair for people who live alone not to be able to legally buddy up with other households, as long as they stick with them and don't keep alternating them.

Martin

I've been the same as your Dad and initiated a conversation at the start of June with my family about visitations between us, ahead of the relaxation of Lockdown. I think as adults we do get to make those kinds of decisions for ourselves; as long as we're putting no-one else in danger. Thankfully, I got to spend a delightful day with my brother, sister-in-law and wonderful three year old niece which, let me tell you, was BADLY needed after three months isolated by myself.

The rest of this thread is interesting but I've given up getting mad about Westminster's cack-handed handling of the pandemic. Yet again we're fed a shit sandwich and expected to grin about it so **** them all, basically. Tories never change and never will.

PS: I hope everyone here is keeping safe and all your families and friends are safe too.

[The Doctor]

We were told when daily briefings stopped that there would be still be ones when there were was significant new stuff to discuss. Apparently shutting down a city with half a million people in it is not significant enough for a daily briefing to the nation.

BUILD BUILD BUILD.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

Of course not. They might get questioned about why it took 11 days to lockdown again and the civil authorities having no access to the health data used to justify it.

[The Doctor]

Johnson adamant Furlough scheme ends in October.

www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-furlough-scheme-update-interview-a4486746.html

Well that's me and 9.1 million other people fucked then.

-Ralph

[Fortmax2020]

You should go to the pub and forget your sorrows.

See, he has it all planned out.

[Bogatan]

And then blame each other for the second wave.

[Bogatan]

And and then if you are still alive and not homeless in 4 years remember to vote Tory.