Which is your favourite Japanese G1 Cartoon?

[Philip Ayres]

All the MP Star Saber talk has raised a question in my mind: Which is your favourite Japanese G1 Cartoon?

[Benn]

Objectively, Masterforce is the better show. But I do keep going back to Victory when I just need a quick bonkers TF action fix.

[legios]

For me this question is synonymous with "which is your favourite Transformers cartoon?" Masterforce takes this hands down. For me it has no competition for the top slot amongst all of what other folks call "G1", and there is little to threaten it for that slot in the rest of the history of TF visual media.

Karl

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Masterforce is head and shoulders above any other TF screen incarnation, and that includes Beast Wars and the animated movie.

Martin

[Andy Turnbull]

Masterforce is far superior, although I do feel there are a few episodes that could be excised it has the most cohesive and interesting storyline of the cartoons.

Andy

[chrisl]

HEADMASTERS

Pros:
- Best theme song
- Nice use of some Western characters (Pointblank, Sixshot).
- Has the funniest dub

Cons:
- Weakest animation
- Poor series storyline
- Some terrible individual episodes (SOS on Planet Sandra)
- Little characterisation for the most part


MASTERFORCE

Pros:
- Best continuous storyline
- Likeable human characters
- Best music score
- Best series ending (ever)

Cons:
- Loss of the ‘robots in disguise’ aspect
- Perhaps stretched over too many episodes.


VICTORY

Pros:
- Best individual episodes (Merge Liokaiser! / Goodbye God Ginrai)
- Best series opening (2nd only to MTMTE)
- Best robot designs
- Best animation (I’m still as blown away by some of the set-pieces as I was when I first saw them back in 1996)
- Well written Destron Characters (Leozak, Gaihawk, Hellbat)

Cons:
- Some weak Cybertron characters (Multiforce)
- Lots of filler episodes.


My personal favourite is Victory because of the characters and the animation, but I keep returning to watch Masterforce as it’s easier to watch and you can pretty much select a random episode and be guaranteed a decent watch.

[Jim]

I have not seen a single episode of any of these.

Sausages.

-Jim

[chrisl]

Aug 12, 2014 23:36:55 GMT Jim said:

I have not seen a single episode of any of these.

Sausages.

-Jim

This needs to be remedied

[Hero]

You have one of the chars as your avatar Jag D-332 was my guy back in the day.

[Jim]

I know, just because of the cyberneticist thing (my degree is in cybernetics)!

Are these things available on DVD or am I going to have to turn to a life of crime?

-Jim

[Philip Ayres]

They were but seem to be OOP

Headmasters: www.amazon.co.uk/Transformers-Takara-Collection-Headmasters-DVD/dp/B000A85TUS/

Masterforce: www.amazon.co.uk/Transformers-Takara-Collection-Super-God-Master/dp/B000EHRUGQ/

Victory: www.amazon.co.uk/Transformers-Takara-Victory-Animated-Discs/dp/B000FBHBOM/

Have a look on finddvd or eBay to source them cheaper.

Sadly only Headmasters has the English StarDub on them

There appear to be cheap R1 versions too.

[Dezzeh]

Victory for me, hands down. Best characters, added exoticism of being Japanese exclusive toys, love it.

[Jim]

May go for R1 if I can get decent shipping, I have a region free player and a Mac that is old enough that I don't mind experimenting with region unlocking it.

I guess it's not so important to start with Headmasters? It sounds like the weaker of the bunch.

-Jim

[Philip Ayres]

Headmasters takes you from the end of US S3. There's a clear break between HM & Masterforce, but certain elements, one character in particular, from MF continue into Victory.

[blueshift]

Aug 13, 2014 14:21:44 GMT Jim said:

May go for R1 if I can get decent shipping, I have a region free player and a Mac that is old enough that I don't mind experimenting with region unlocking it.

I guess it's not so important to start with Headmasters? It sounds like the weaker of the bunch.

-Jim

I seem to remember the R1 DVDs dont' have the subs? Is that right? Or am I making that up.

The R2 releases are excellent.


Also Masterforce is easily the best series. It starts a little slow, and the addition of the Autobot Godmasters is the weakest bits (as they are quite boring characters) but man, when that show gets going, it gets going. Pretty much everyone gets character arcs and long term development, and past a certain point there is payoff after payoff.

Headmasters is fun for the first six or so episodes (especially listening to the dub) but soon gets boring.

Victory is... I dunno. I wanted to like it, but I found it hard to get into. It is more generic robot fighting. Episodes tend to revolve around Starsaber and the mighty Autobot army mercilessly crushing the comical Decepticons.

[chrisl]

In defence of Victory I'd say that although the first 14 or so episodes are pretty much "Star Saber saves the day", this is only to build up to the fact that it’s noticeably the Destrons who have the upper hand (and are more credible villans with different motives) from episode 15 onwards. Whereas in Masterforce you know that God Ginrai’s chokon power will make everything generally ok by the end of the episode and that he’s more than a match for Overlord and Black Zarak, there is a genuine feeling in Victory that Star Saber (and later Victory Saber) is not a match for Deszaras and especially Liokaiser.

[Jim]

The R1 releases seem to have the subs:

www.amazon.com/Transformers-Japanese-Collection-Super-God-Masterforce/dp/B0077T5SUE

I only hope the subs will be readable on my iPhone screen as ripping them to that and watching them on my commute is my best bet to watch anything these days.

It's surprisingly hard to find reviews and comparisons of the releases, but I thankfully got steered away from the Malaysian box set which apparently has appalling picture quality.

-Jim

[Grand Moff Muffin]

Aug 14, 2014 11:08:47 GMT chrisl said:

Whereas in Masterforce you know that God Ginrai’s chokon power will make everything generally ok by the end of the episode and that he’s more than a match for Overlord and Black Zarak, there is a genuine feeling in Victory that Star Saber (and later Victory Saber) is not a match for Deszaras and especially Liokaiser.

Funny, I feel the opposite! Have you actually seen all of Masterforce, Chris? You say "God Ginrai’s chokon power will make everything generally ok by the end of the episode", but

SPOILER: Click to show

he failed to save much of Earth from being destroyed with millions of lives apparently lost. There are some wonderful cliffhangers where Ginrai is really despairing for his life, most notably his first battle with Overlord, who pretty much destroys him and leaves him for dead in the desert. Only the construction of Godbomber - near the end of the series - enabled him to stand up to either Overlord or Black Zarak, and even then he had a real crisis of confidence to get over to do it.

One of the many things I loved about Masterforce was that the characters were not warriors by choice or nature, but forced into the role by circumstances beyond their control, much like Ratchet in 'Warrior School'. I don't like characters who like being warriors and take pride in it, which I think is why the Victory characters never appealed to me.

Martin

[blueshift]

And even with Godbomber, on that first time out with the showdown on the moon it would have been toast if Grand Max hadn't turned up.

Man, what a great series!

[blueshift]

Aug 14, 2014 13:20:42 GMT Jim said:

The R1 releases seem to have the subs:

www.amazon.com/Transformers-Japanese-Collection-Super-God-Masterforce/dp/B0077T5SUE

I only hope the subs will be readable on my iPhone screen as ripping them to that and watching them on my commute is my best bet to watch anything these days.

It's surprisingly hard to find reviews and comparisons of the releases, but I thankfully got steered away from the Malaysian box set which apparently has appalling picture quality.

-Jim

Maybe it was the R1 set that didn't have the Headmasters dub then.

You can probably pick up a decent priced uk set off ebay. I remember there were stacks of Masterforce going for a tenner a while back.

[Jim]

Yes, think I'll keep an eye on eBay, it doesn't look like it's going to be too hard to get an R2 set at a decent price. More of a side-quest than a full-on capital-Q Quest.

-Jim

[duffism1981]

I am another who has to vote Masterforce. When Nick first gave me the Real Player files 10 years ago, that had the Stardub, I hated the series. Once I saw it in dvd quality with the original dub and no silly names, it became one of my favourite series ever.

[chrisl]

Aug 14, 2014 16:19:31 GMT Grand Moff Muffin said:

Aug 14, 2014 11:08:47 GMT chrisl said:

Whereas in Masterforce you know that God Ginrai’s chokon power will make everything generally ok by the end of the episode and that he’s more than a match for Overlord and Black Zarak, there is a genuine feeling in Victory that Star Saber (and later Victory Saber) is not a match for Deszaras and especially Liokaiser.

Funny, I feel the opposite! Have you actually seen all of Masterforce, Chris? You say "God Ginrai’s chokon power will make everything generally ok by the end of the episode", but

SPOILER: Click to show

he failed to save much of Earth from being destroyed with millions of lives apparently lost. There are some wonderful cliffhangers where Ginrai is really despairing for his life, most notably his first battle with Overlord, who pretty much destroys him and leaves him for dead in the desert. Only the construction of Godbomber - near the end of the series - enabled him to stand up to either Overlord or Black Zarak, and even then he had a real crisis of confidence to get over to do it.

One of the many things I loved about Masterforce was that the characters were not warriors by choice or nature, but forced into the role by circumstances beyond their control, much like Ratchet in 'Warrior School'. I don't like characters who like being warriors and take pride in it, which I think is why the Victory characters never appealed to me.

Martin

I have watched all of Masterforce and all of Victory (both in Star Dub Real Player copies and subtitled DVD quality) and while I totally agree about the Cybertrons in Masterforce (unwilling warriors) having much stronger characterisation than those in Victory (heroes by numbers), I still maintain my previous point regarding Ginrai’s Chokon Power.

In Masterforce:
Ginrai is pretty much indestructible upto episode 24 “Super Ginrai Gets Blown Away in the Desert!?” when Overlord appears for the first time. At this point you do feel a genuine concern/fear for Ginrai against Overlord and the potential threat of Black Zarak – who is being built-up as being even stronger than Overlord over the next few episodes before he actually arrives. However, by the end of episode 27 “God Ginrai - Showdown on the Surface of the Moon” when Ginrai has got over his self-doubt it reasonably looks like one-on-one God-Ginrai is more than a match for either Overlord or Black Zarak. When Grand Maximus enters the battle in this episode there is a sense that this is fairly even, if not tipped in the Cybertrons favour. In episode 35 “Crisis! The Day of Human Extinction” God-Ginrai also destroys the Destrons’ space fortress/super cannon thing with ease. In terms of the destruction of the world, we only really see this by the time of episode 40 “Autobots! Desperate Attack!!” (although China suffers serious destruction in episode 36 “God Ginrai - Save Cancer!?” and there are two small scale battles in Europe). The only time I ever got a serious concern for God-Ginrai was in the final battle at the end of the last episode where he takes on Devil-Z’s two-headed serpent form and needs the power of the Headmaster Jnrs to do the Final God-Fire Guts.

In Victory:
Aside from his early skirmishes with Deszaras, Star Saber is pretty much indestructible until episode 16/19 (if counting clip-shows) “Merge Liokaiser” when Liokaiser makes his first appearance. At this point, Liokaiser wipes the floor with him without using all of his powers and also wipes the floor with God-Ginrai when he shows up to help. It’s only when they team up that Liokaiser thinks about retreating. In episode 17/21 “Resurrection!? The Decepticon Fortress” Star Saber only just escapes from being killed by Deszaras and that’s only because the later has to rescue the Thunder Arrow. Following the introduction of Liokaiser’s stealth mode in episode 23 “Fight to the Death!! Antarctic Battle” he defeats both Star Saber and Galaxy Shuttle (who is supposed to be big enough for other Cybertrons to travel in). In episode 25 “A Deadly Battle” Star Saber is beaten by both Liokaiser and Deszaras individually, and Deszaras subsequently fatally wounds God-Ginrai when he takes what would have been Star Saber’s deathblow. From this point on, the only functioning Cybertrons are Braver, Laster, the Multiforce and the Rescue Team. Even when Victory Leo is created, and subsequently Victory Saber – neither are seen as a match for Deszaras or Liokaiser throughout the rest of the series – let alone the ‘big-bad’ which is the Destron Space Fortress.

In terms of world-wide destruction, the planet is devastated from episode 30 “The Tide Is Turned! The Ultimate Weapon, the Victory Unification” where the Destrons are using cluster bombs from the Space Fortress. Further world devastation is caused by Giant Tidal Waves in episode 35 “The Terror of the Giant Tidal Waves”. By the end of episode 36 “The Wrath of the Resurrected Giant Fortress!” the situation is that the only fully functioning Cybertrons are the Rescue Team. Road Caesar & Greatshot tried (and failed) to take on the Space Fortress, Victory Saber was blasted by its cannon, and Landcross was injured by the cluster bombs on Earth. In episode 37 “Showdown! The Fortress vs the Victory Unification” the only reason why the day is saved is because Icepick tells Jean the fortress’ weakspot and Jean uses Illumina II to sneak onboard and self-destruct. Star Saber does mortally wound (not kill) Deszaras in a sword fight but it’s more of a lucky shot. Victory Leo manages to knock Liokaiser into the energy refractor and disables him. From the introduction of Liokaiser onwards I always had a concern that the Destrons were too powerful for the Cybertrons.

[Pinwig]

I bought these when the R2 releases came out. Until then they'd just been something that was largely unobtainable to me. They sat on a shelf as 'something I'd get round to' until about 10 months ago when I started watching Headmasters, and yesterday I finished Masterforce.

So I may need to change my vote once I've seen Victory, but of these first two series I have to buck the trend and become the social outcast who's given Headmasters its one vote. I watched these subbed, I saw the dubbed episode of Four Warriors that was on one of the Movie DVDs years ago and decided with this viewing I'd go the original route. I really loved Headmasters. I mean really. It felt like a genuine continuation of the original cartoon, and I even came to like the idea that the heads were actually Transformers and not Humans/Nebulans. There was a story going on there that was part of the bigger picture. 

I did like Masterforce, but I didn't get into it until after Double Clouder had turned up around episode 30; from that point on it got tighter and more robot focussed. I had problems initially accepting that the Pretenders were these secret hidden Autobots who had lain dormant while everything that had gone before had happened (and the appearance of Chromedome tied all the continuities together); that the Decepticon big bad was a typical anime tentacle monster; also I couldn't get over the fact that Ginrai looked like Prime. The only reason for that was so the toy could sell, it made no sense otherwise; but the biggest thing I found hard to get round was the fact that after the Pretenders are largely forgotten about, the series became about a bunch of humans who connected to robot bodies to fight. Which is basically any Japanese robot anime you care to name. It wasn't a series about Transformers. It even felt ultimately that the show wanted to escape that in the final episodes - for the last twelve or so Ginrai only appears as a robot, and Overlord is almost always 'Overlord' and not Mega and Giga. Then there's all that fuss about the transtectors becoming sentient, which is basically saying, 'they're Transformers after all!'

The difference to me with the Nebulan version of the Headmasters story is that the Nebulans' minds combined with the Transformer, so they were improved by being a combination of the two intelligences. With Masterforce the transtector is just a body; the human component is the sole intelligence. So when Ginrai is bashing up Overlord, it isn't actually anything to do with Cybertron or Transformers. It's some trucker bloke versus Mr & Mrs Giga/Mega.

I certainly appreciate that it is an anime, and as such uses a lot of tropes from Japanese culture, which takes it away from being an American style G1 cartoon, but I just felt until it reigned itself in for the last 12 episodes it had gone too far from what Transformers is about. 

[Grand Moff Muffin]

I guess I'd suggest the difference between Masterforce and typical anime is that the robot bodies that are being (more or less) controlled by the humans (though they sometimes rebel) are alien tech rather than human-built. The humans learn more about the tech later in the series when they build Godbomber in a human factory, but even then it's using blueprints brought from outer space. So I always had the feeling that the humans in the series were out of their depth, playing in a giant's playground, rather than pitting human tech against aliens/monsters as is the case in other series.

It is different from previous TFs, but I don't want endless re-hashes, I want to see evolution. And unless the humans get wiped out by the TFs, I see the evolution of the TF story as inevitably being one where humans learning from TFs either enhance or surpass standard TFs, taking both species to a new level. It happened with Headmasters in the Marvel comics, and happens a bit differently in Masterforce.

Victory seemed to take a backward step in that it reversed this evolution and re-established the status quo of pure Cybertronians stomping over everyone else.

Martin

[Jaymz]

Aug 13, 2014 14:21:44 GMT Jim said:

May go for R1 if I can get decent shipping, I have a region free player and a Mac that is old enough that I don't mind experimenting with region unlocking it.

There's a R4 set out in Australia too:
www.madman.com.au/catalogue/view/11738

[primenova]

Should Hasbro pay to have these cartoons fully voiced over in english?

they could make money right away from toy sales to cover the cost of voice over work & redoing the music for the episodes. But one thing to get everyone in USA to sign up yes - you just need to say one thing

New Robotmasters type toy of Overlord release US retail.

Hasbro could make all toys in Robotmaster line type style for all the toys. Need to alter a few names & not have Nightbeat released with having the female one. Lube can be renamed Muzzle, Chris would need to help Hasbro out with the plot etc. (with doing the UK DVD stuff) Hotrod would be called Rodimus.

[The Doctor]

The shows exist in 4:3 picture ratio and with mono sound elements. Additionally, the picture quality is not in a high enough definition to pass as a new show.

It's never going to happen. However, there have been various freely available fan efforts to dub the shows so the option to watch some of these episodes with English audio tracks does exist for those who wish them.

-Ralph

[Pinwig]

I've been quite happy to watch them subbed. Unless you're suggesting using a dub to change the narrative, which might work with Headmasters, but I think Masterforce and Victory would be too difficult to bend toward the US continuities and Ralph is right I think. Too much effort for something so obscure.

[Hero]

Victory's old dubbing was legendary. The cast voiced between 6 VAs I recall. I still have the VHS tapes.

"Starrrr Saberrrr, I'm gonna bury you in space".

"I won't let you destroy the Earth!".