|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 18, 2017 22:12:01 GMT
Well I don't know what time Netflix are putting episodes up other than 'one day after the US'. With a streaming show folk watch it at different times so reasonable to allow for some spoiler space.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 19, 2017 17:36:22 GMT
I become more excited by the day. I hope this is good. I've been wanting Trek to return to the original timeline and its natural home of the TV format. It needed to be off the air as it had become stale and it's been away for the right amount of time. I just hope it manages the balancing act of having that specific Star Trek feel while feeling like something made in 2017 rather than 1966 or 1987. I also hope 'fan service' is kept to wee winks and nods rather than the overt text. I enjoy that kind of thing in the novels but the main cannon should remain fresh.
With regards to the time when it is set, I hope the show uses that creatively to tell stories that makes sense with a few allusions to TOS rather than a full-on prequel to TOS. I'd like Discovery to have its own identity rather than 'here are stories which just set up episodes made 50 years ago'. It can be done. The spin-off book series Vanguard managed it.
Essentially I want what worked for Doctor Who when it came back: the feel of the original, the subtle nods to the fanbase to reassure them it's the same show but to mostly remain fresh and modern enough to work for new viewers who don't know the property. A tricky balancing act! On streaming services audiences can be more fickle. If a show doesn't grab attention a different one can be selected literally within seconds!
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Pinwig on Sept 19, 2017 19:06:16 GMT
Well I don't know what time Netflix are putting episodes up other than 'one day after the US'. With a streaming show folk watch it at different times so reasonable to allow for some spoiler space. -Ralph Oh I agree, I just wanted to clarify which days you meant. |
|
|
|
Post by legios on Sept 19, 2017 20:22:22 GMT
I find myself very much going into this with an open-mind. I'm curious to see what a new take on Star Trek as a television property will generate. There is still plenty of room for interesting things to be done within the Space Opera format, and a decent modernised Star Trek spinoff which keeps the essential heart of the original property but develops its own flavour would be most welcome. It would make a nice flavour contrast to one of my other current must-sees - a leavening of Space Opera to counterbalance the SF of The Expanse would be a great thing to have.
So far the only opinion I have formed is on the Main Title. Decent piece of music, sounds good and makes some interesting transitions into and out of the original Main Title which work surprisingly well. Beyond that, time - and next week - will tell.
Karl
|
|
|
|
Post by KnightBeat on Sept 24, 2017 22:13:37 GMT
Discovery intro revealed. It's a bit arty, but I'm sure it'll grow on me over time. No Russell Watson this time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Fortmax2020 on Sept 24, 2017 23:22:41 GMT
Phil, can you send this to the Discovery thread? Ta.
|
|
|
|
Post by Toph on Sept 25, 2017 2:00:45 GMT
The pilot... really isn't enough to form a strong opinion on. I'm also confused what continuity it's set in. They say it's prime, but visually absolutely *everything* seems like kelvin (as opposed to just borrowing elements) Also there is no ground shaking secret spoiler in the pilot that changes the shape of the show. So no reason like that, that I can see to deny critics a screening. |
|
|
|
Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 25, 2017 6:04:54 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by blueshift on Sept 25, 2017 17:32:06 GMT
For Phil, Discovery day was last week. For everyone else, it's today!
Watching it now. Halfway through episode 1. It's okay but slow. Not nearly as clever as it thinks it is though.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 17:43:32 GMT
The pilot... really isn't enough to form a strong opinion on. I'm also confused what continuity it's set in. They say it's prime, but visually absolutely *everything* seems like kelvin (as opposed to just borrowing elements) Also there is no ground shaking secret spoiler in the pilot that changes the shape of the show. So no reason like that, that I can see to deny critics a screening. Well a thing near the end of episode 2 was clearly meant to be a surprise when thingy went to the thingy and the thingy happened to them. -Ralph |
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 17:57:00 GMT
First 2 episodes watched. Hmmm. I need this to percolate in my head for a bit. Some of it worked, some of it didn't.
I thought episode 1 got off to a bad start with Space People talking about the vadoons of the hingons and then pretty awful "As you'll know, Bob." type dialogue from the Starfleeters which didn't do the actors any favours. I suppose I was disappointed that after 12 years off TV the opportunity to represent Star Trek to new viewers appears not to have been thought of. I was hoping for a 2005 Doctor Who type kick-off, ie assume most viewers won't know the show and reintroduce the premise to a general audience. With all the alien "How's your father?" type chat at the start and no proper introduction to what Stafleet is, etc I can't see this bringing in folk who aren't already fans. I was reminded of an article from Doctor Who Magazine in 1999 (when the show was dead) when industry professionals were asked how they would bring the show back and Russell T Davis said if you start on a purple planet which aliens talking portentiously viewers will switch off (I am paraphrasing from memory).
I was confused the show confirmed to an act structure with fading to black for a streaming service show.
Picked up as it went on though as I got the hang of the pacing and the writing was a bit smoother when flashbacks weren't being driven at top speed on to the screen. Brave choice to make the main character a complete prick. I can see why episode 2 went up at the same time to keep folk engaged who may have thought: "the star of the show is an idiot, why should I keep watching?". With the second episode it became clearer that was part of the point of the show and by the end of it I was intrigued to see what happens next. Odd that it claimed the record for shortest running live-action ST episode, clocking in at only 39 mins!
Michelle Yeoh was unusually awful in it though. Doug Jones is the standout of the show so far. More of that guy, please.
I like the visual look of the show though it does suffer from pilotitus. Felt just a bit flat but there's potential in there. I can see what they're going for with the Klingon stuff: just needs a bit more development but it's clearly a through-line so hopefully that will come.
It's clearly just chapters 1 and 2 rather than episodes 1 and 2 so hard to pass full judgement.
I'll give it another watch. I have a similar feeling to what I felt the first time I saw Encounter At Farpoint: all over the place, but there's something to it.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Philip Ayres on Sept 25, 2017 18:04:23 GMT
I was confused the show confirmed to an act structure with fading to black for a streaming service show. Clearly made with an eye to selling it in a Broadcast environment at some pt. |
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 18:06:58 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by blueshift on Sept 25, 2017 18:34:38 GMT
Well a thing near the end of episode 2 was clearly meant to be a surprise when thingy went to the thingy and the thingy happened to them. I mean, I guess if you've not seen any of the pre-show stuff that would be a surprise but we know the show's called Discovery and the captain of the Discovery isn't that lady, so either she dies or kicks her off or something happened! Watched it all! Yeah... I mean... it was better than I was expecting, but also a bit frustrating. Way way too slow. Felt like they had a plot for one episode and were all "oh better stretch it out to a two episode premiere!". Given we've not got to the Discovery yet, two episodes in of a 13 ep series, feels a bit of an odd move. Liked the tall alien guy. He was cool. Also the only character in the show?  Michael spent the first episode being really boring, got interesting towards the end of episode 1 and then eh. I guess. The captain lady was really bland and stilted. Don't understand why the captain and first officer only needed to beam across to a ship full of hostile deadly aliens. Isn't that what you employ a big burly security team for? She deserved to die for that, come on!!!!! I really wish those Klingon's spoke English for convenience sake. Like, it's novel for a scene or two, but they go on and on and on!! But yeah, it was competent. Just not sure I want a 13 episode gritty space war drama instead of a Star Trek show. |
|
|
|
Post by Toph on Sept 25, 2017 18:39:24 GMT
Given the klingons have a complete redesign, and that they're a total mystery to Starfleet, we the audience should have known nothing of the Klingon motives.
We should have been learning what was going on with them as the characters were.
This is how we were introduced to the Romulans, the Ferengi, the Tholians, the Borg.
We, the audience, already know the Klingons was a fairly clever way to introduce Enterprise, but that worked because the Klingons were the Klingons as we'd known them for 20+ years.
But here, everything about them is so different, they may as well be a completely brand new race. Their motives needed to be a mystery. Their appearance needed to be a reveal. All the tension the writers wanted the pilot to have that was absent, not only would have been present, it would have been overwhelming.
|
|
|
|
Post by blueshift on Sept 25, 2017 19:06:33 GMT
I think having the Klingons as a mysterious mystery would be even worse as the audience already know what the Klingons are and how they act. Even your casual man in the street knows. If there's one thing I hate it's when shows play up stuff that literally everyone knows as some sort of mystery
(See: The 1996 Doctor Who TVM)
I do agree that an entire episode of them standing about, loudly and clearly expositing their plans, was going a bit far on the anti-mystery front though!
|
|
|
|
Post by blueshift on Sept 25, 2017 19:08:53 GMT
For Ralph:
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 19:44:58 GMT
Good grief. It actually fits.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 19:49:52 GMT
RE: The Klingons. Their armour design made it look like they were wearing spikey dresses in some shots. Once I saw that I could not unsee it. The idea of them speaking with subtitles was fine but for some reason that mystifies me it sounded like all the actors had been given dodgy prosthetics that made it difficult for them both to speak clearly and to move their mouths properly. That should have been caught in post production. Some ADR could have sorted that. The actor playing the lead Klingon chappy seemed to be struggling just to open his mouth to talk at times!
My thoughts are settling down to: that was a mess but an interesting mess. I'm unclear why the fab Saru is not the lead character rather than First Officer Prick though. Ech, we'll see how it goes. There's enough there to intrigue me and I am curious how it goes. Besides, it is traditional for each Trek show to launch with 'dodgy but promising' episodes anyway!
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by blueshift on Sept 25, 2017 19:55:25 GMT
Besides, it is traditional for each Trek show to launch with 'dodgy but promising' episodes anyway! Not sure it's really comparable. The other Trek pilots might have been a bit crap, but in all of them they are 'here is the show, here is how it works and here is what it will do'. The first two eps of Discovery felt more like a prequel. I have no idea what the actual show is yet. |
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 19:59:11 GMT
Not an unusual approach. Recall that it took a few episodes before the premise of Blake's 7 was fully set up.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Bogatan on Sept 25, 2017 20:02:35 GMT
Pretty much what I expected in overall style. I was expecting a more compressed origin story like DS9s pilot, but was mostly happy to be surprised by the approach they took. What I dont understand is why this wasnt editted in to a single feature length epsiode (even if they had a 2 part version as well for future TV broadcast)Im sure it would have flowed a little better. Much like Inhumans I found myself wondering who they were replaying the last 30 seconds of the previous episode for. Basically I had no problems with the story or direction the show appears to be going. Some of the dialogue was iffy and Im undecided if Klingons should speak in Klingon the whole time. Visually it looks great, though if you didn't like the JJ films I can understand why some might not be so keen. Design choices are.. Spoiler
I don't know. The Klingons redisgn appears completely for the sake of it. I really hoped some of the holo-klingons would be sporting something closer to traditional make up so as to at least suggest this was just a case of regional differences or similar. Instead it looks like it will just be change for change sake. A shame if it remains the case as Star Trek has mostly tried to explain or justify changes made across series and movies.
The Klingon ships likewise seemed changed for the sake of it, though the theoriszed Romulan-Klingon alliance during TOS could be used to explain a significant redesign of both Klingon and potentially Romulan ships over the next dozen years.
The Federation fares better. Most of the ships shown look reasonably with in range of Enterprise through TOS Movie designs at least from a distance. Overall it would have made more sense setting this closer to half way between ENT and TOS than where it is, or edging the designs a bit closer to TOS, but eh, its not going to bother me much I hope.
Oh and the death came as a surprise to me, I'd forgotten the various casting announcements so was really not expecting it.
Holo-communicaters though, screw that, thats literally shown being tested during DS9, sure it could be passed off as an earlier failed/abandoned version, but it clearly is being widely used on both sides a decade before TOS. Everything else comes down to a new visual styling, this is changing what technologies are available during, okay close to an established time period. This annoys me. |
|
|
|
Post by legios on Sept 25, 2017 20:06:31 GMT
That was a bit of a curate's egg. That is, good in parts... In others not so good. The pacing was a somewhat erratic - opening with such a long slog of Space Aliens in a WH40K-esque spaceship spouting things at each other in a terribly leaden -style was a terrible idea and just felt as if it was absolutely calculated to confirm people's jaundiced expectations of the show. Open with the "You are lost" scene for god's sake! Serious questions need to be asked as to what was being thought when they edited this. Structurally I felt that this had clearly started as a 90 minute TV movie and then been given some rather back-street hack-work to turn it into roughly two episodes as well. There is no way that they could have deliberately started out wanting to go from a dramatic recap straight into a character-based flashback out of choice at the top of an episode. To be honest, it did feel like a TV Movie designed to set-up a series rather than a part of a series in its own right. Indeed, the last scene and the last shots of it had a finality and a definiteness that makes it feel very odd as the beginning of something rather than a thing complete in itself. In terms of character performances I do think that Doug Jones is definitely the stand-out. He brought a definite roundedness to his performance which made him seem like a proper sapient being, and I thought he played of the other main cast of this quite well. Sadly Michelle Yeoh looked incredibly uncomfortable throughout, and I think, bar a few scenes which she shared with the lead and with some fairly "just folk talking" dialogue it did look like she was struggling with a role that just wasn't working for her. {Spoiler} I actually quite like our lead character from a dramatic point of view - there is something interesting about a character who feels like they accidentally brought about the awful outcome they were trying to prevent and now needs to atone. That can be dramatically quite effective. The fact that it proved to be far more difficult to do than to say, and only led to her inadvertently making everything worse is an interesting note to play and suggests that this is going to be a theme that runs throughout Discovery as a series.
They are certainly looking to do something distinctly different tonally to anything other Star Trek spin-offs have really explored, and I can see how they are laying in threads about lost innocence, about guilt and atonement. Whether they can actually pay these off well remains to be seen. But it is certainly a different animal to the current Paramount Star Trek, and it's grandiouse ray-guns and rocket ships Space Opera or to Star Trek's own hybrid SF/Space Opera/Adventure series style.
I thought it was interesting, and I can see a lot of potential in this. Whether they can actually live up to the potential I think is something we won't know until we actually see more of the series proper. Karl |
|
|
|
Post by Bogatan on Sept 25, 2017 20:07:48 GMT
RE: The Klingons. The idea of them speaking with subtitles was fine but for some reason that mystifies me it sounded like all the actors had been given dodgy prosthetics that made it difficult for them both to speak clearly and to move their mouths properly. That should have been caught in post production. Some ADR could have sorted that. The actor playing the lead Klingon chappy seemed to be struggling just to open his mouth to talk at times! -Ralph Yeah this, their inability to speak in the new make up should have been reason enough for someone to decide it against these designs. Or at least to ADR as you say. Having said that the design wasnt quite as extreme a change as I had expected. Still too far without in continuity explanation, but not so far as to make them look completely unrelated. |
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 20:12:08 GMT
Just imagine what the dailies of the Klingon scenes would have been like.
"Mmmmchaaaa ummmphhhh maaappph!"
"Quikarrrmmmphhhh ummph!"
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by legios on Sept 25, 2017 20:25:37 GMT
Yeah, the new prosthetics are - on a practical level- a mistake. They seemed to cause issues for most of the actors to one degree or another which was somewhat problematic.
As to the design more generally, I hadn't caught the spiky-dresses thing until it was mentioned here...but now I can't not see it. I think that overall the costume design for the Klingon's suffered from the same "lets turn it all up to eleven" that the set and mechanical design suffered from for them as well. It ended up having that overblown Games Workshop "everything has spikes and skulls and spikey skulls on it" look, without unfortunately the satirical intent that the original GW folk had when they did it.
By contrast I quite liked the set-design for the Federation interiors. As much as I can see the influences of the Movie-Trek franchise on it, I could also see a through line from the Shenzou's interiors to the "Wrath of Khan" Enterprise interiors. In a lot of ways there is a unifying of design here which, whether intentional or not, makes the original block Constitution class ships feel like they were the "special snowlakes" as built, with a different feel and approach to their predecessors and their successors. (correcting for massive differences in television technology across the decades obviously).
All told, I think I'm interested to see where they go with this lead character, and with this show. I think that viewed as a TV movie what we've had is interesting, if suffering from some noteable flaws (not unlike our lead then...) I don't think that "Star Trek:Discovery" is going to fall into the 'right, more episodes are available, they must be watched swiftly' of an "Orphan Black", "Jessica Jones" or a "The Expanse" for me. But given that it is dropping in weekly increments that does it no real harm, because it sits nicely with a 'watch at some point in the week', much like I have done with "Luke Cage" and "Iron Fist".
Karl
|
|
|
|
Post by legios on Sept 25, 2017 20:31:24 GMT
What I dont understand is why this wasnt editted in to a single feature length epsiode (even if they had a 2 part version as well for future TV broadcast)Im sure it would have flowed a little better. Much like Inhumans I found myself wondering who they were replaying the last 30 seconds of the previous episode for. I'm not so sure that it didn't actually start out the other way. It felt to me that it had begun life as a 90-minute TV movie length thing, and then they'd had to slice it up after the fact as best they could - rather than it having been planned from the outset with an eye to it working as two separate episodes. There are so many odd editing choices which I think give a sense of an attempt to refit it into something it was never meant to be structurally. Karl |
|
|
|
Post by The Doctor on Sept 25, 2017 20:37:59 GMT
I wonder if it was something to do with CBS wanting an episode to show on their regular channel as an enticer for folk to sign up for CBS All Access to see the rest of the series. They may have only wanted 60 minutes airtime for this rather than a 2-hour block (with ads) which perhaps clashed with the structure of the story. Who knows. It will come out in the wash.
-Ralph
|
|
|
|
Post by Toph on Sept 25, 2017 21:34:08 GMT
I wonder if it was something to do with CBS wanting an episode to show on their regular channel as an enticer for folk to sign up for CBS All Access to see the rest of the series. They may have only wanted 60 minutes airtime for this rather than a 2-hour block (with ads) which perhaps clashed with the structure of the story. Who knows. It will come out in the wash. -Ralph That's it exactly. They aired part one, and every commercial break was buffered with "SUBSCRIBE NOW FOR PART TWO!!!" This isn't even my standard hyperbole. It's exactly what they did. This is even the only reason they aired it at all, was to promote the CBS subscription service. |
|
|
|
Post by Bogatan on Sept 25, 2017 21:44:05 GMT
In fairness getting subscribers for cbs all access is the only reason this and the good fight exist. So using the network premiere to drive home how to watch future episodes makes total sense.
And it seems to have worked with record numbers of subscribers.
Even so id still have had the combined episode available for all access and Netflix.
|
|
Michael spent the first episode being really boring, got interesting towards the end of episode 1 and then eh. I guess.