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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Sept 10, 2020 17:48:08 GMT
I like it.
Martin
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Post by Toph on Sept 10, 2020 17:54:53 GMT
It shows Worf isn't an idiot, and has knowledge outside of being klingon, which the DS9 writers seem to forget.
It's nowhere near one of the good episodes, but it's certainly not the worst. I mean, Skin of Evil, Sub Rosa, and Code of Honor exist, after all.
I would put Masks with Genesis, as primo camp type bad.
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 10, 2020 17:54:57 GMT
Of course.
-Ralph
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 10, 2020 18:00:56 GMT
I love Genesis. It's hilarious.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Sept 10, 2020 18:54:28 GMT
It is by quite some distance the worst TNG, for me. -Ralph You used to say Enterprise was bad. You'll come round.
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 10, 2020 19:20:21 GMT
No.
Enterprise grew on me when it was no longer the sad end for Star Trek. At the time, it wasn't good enough. Now it has a certain charm.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Sept 10, 2020 19:23:47 GMT
It has no charm. It lost the image of it when you took it from me. Beast.
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 10, 2020 19:29:34 GMT
Terra Prime...foreverrrrrrr.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Sept 10, 2020 19:30:47 GMT
Worst TNG episode: · Shades of Gray- a clip show. And a stupid one at that. Riker wasn't even in some of his own "memories."
Honorable mentions: · Code of Honor- oh my gosh how did they think that was ever OK. · Sub Rosa- Thank god Wesley wasn't around for that. Troi couldn't handle both him AND post Genesis Barclay. · Skin of Evil- Not only is it the one where they unceremoniously get rid of Crosby, but it was both boring and a very stupid premise. · The Psychic Rape episode · The Dude Psychically steals Troi's youth and makes her insane episode · And the This Episode's writer really doesn't understand feminism episode.
At least CoH, Sub Rosa, and the last one are laughably bad, even if I usually turn the channel. The others I just can't even watch.
And the worst concept with the sweetest execution in all of trek, is the DS9 Lwaxanna is pregnant and Odo marries her episode.
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Jim
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Post by Jim on Sept 10, 2020 21:19:56 GMT
I think I'd mostly agree with that. TNG was notably terrible at dealing with female characters, and it's sad how that is reflected in what many of the worst episodes involve.
The one thing I will say for Skin of Evil is there's that bit just after Tasha is downed where it briefly feels like Star Trek meets ER, with lots of shouting of medical jargon and a real feeling of urgency.
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 10, 2020 21:23:24 GMT
I love Armus the villain. Always wanted it to return.
Picard's deadpan delivery of "I'm not taking you anywhere" as he beams away and leaves Armus to his fate is a great moment.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Sept 10, 2020 21:31:54 GMT
It's really kinda sad for Deanna, that her mother had more great episodes than she did. Cost of Living (I think?) with David Ogden Stiers is one of my all time favorite episodes of any trek.
But there were some good Troi episodes, but usually those were the ones that didn't reduce her to her psychic powers (Face of the Enemy and Disaster). Crusher had some good ones, too. Remember Me being the best, imo.
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Post by Toph on Sept 10, 2020 21:38:49 GMT
I love Armus the villain. Always wanted it to return. Picard's deadpqn delivery of "I'm not taking you anywhere" as he beams away and leaves Armus to his fate is a great moment. -Ralph I think Armus himself was a decent concept, but it was just so unlikely that he'd be a genuine threat in that scenario. The Power of a Galaxy Class Starship stymied by an oil slick. Though Armus should have returned in DS9, as either one of the infant changelings, or so close to them that when Odo learns of him, he thinks he might be.
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Post by Pinwig on Oct 2, 2020 23:00:39 GMT
It's always nagged at me that I never finished watching DS9. I only got to the end of season 3 back in the day. I'm watching The Emmisary on Netflix in the hope it still holds up and I get further this time.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Oct 2, 2020 23:12:16 GMT
*blinks in disbelief* Season 3 is when it's momentum really gets going!
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Post by Toph on Oct 2, 2020 23:18:19 GMT
Agreed. Honestly, seasons 1&2 only become interesting in hindsight.
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Post by Pinwig on Oct 3, 2020 5:28:17 GMT
Yes, it was circumstance at the time. It's always been on the to do list to get back to it, but these days it seems "Yeah, I still need to do that" can suddenly be twenty-five years later.
Watching it reminded me The Emissary was an odd start to a series, but I really enjoyed it.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Oct 3, 2020 7:46:08 GMT
If Pinwig doesn't finish his story how will Captain Sisko be able to save everyone?
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Post by Toph on Oct 3, 2020 8:19:30 GMT
You must have Faith in the will of the Prophets, my child.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Oct 3, 2020 8:20:41 GMT
Put down the remote, Pinwig. It's for your own good.
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 3, 2020 9:20:54 GMT
The earlier seasons of DS9 are much better.
-Ralph
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Post by Pinwig on Oct 3, 2020 9:55:24 GMT
I loved it BITD. I was even buying the CIC VHS tapes, two episodes a pop. But circumstance changed and I lost touch with it. I am having trouble remembering exactly where I stopped though. I know it was an end of season cliffhanger where I think the Jem Hadar attacked DS9 and an important? ship was destroyed, I remember it blowing up with a to be continued bit. I can't place where that was though, was it end of Season 3?
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 3, 2020 10:02:33 GMT
The first few seasons are quite vivid for me and I watched episodes multiple times. When it turned into the war show I lost interest a bit and only saw episodes once back in the day when the show was new. I much preferred Voyager when it was running alongside.
I've been rewatching season 1 and it holds up.
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Oct 3, 2020 10:04:10 GMT
Yeah, that was the finale of season 3, and the introduction of the Jem'Hadar. They blew up a Galaxy Class ship to show off how strong the Jem'Hadar are.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Oct 3, 2020 10:08:14 GMT
The earlier seasons of DS9 are much better. I'm mulling this and trying to decide whether or not I agree, and I think the honest answer is my memory isn't good enough to judge. And that's because while I saw every episode of DS9 at the time, and enjoyed it, I haven't seen a single episode in the last two decades. If I remember rightly, the early seasons were more about standalone episodes, the later ones more about ongoing story. I think the reason I've never re-watched DS9 is that when it finished I had three complete recent space series fresh in my memory - TNG, DS9 and Babylon 5. (I gave up on Voyager.) And in my view TNG was the best of the three for standalone episodes, and B5 the best for an ongoing story arc, while DS9 was the second best of the three for both standalone and ongoing story. So in the subsequent decades I've been motivated to re-watch TNG for standalone episodes and B5 for ongoing story, but haven't been motivated to revisit DS9 for either. Though it may be an equally good series if you average out all each series' strengths and weaknesses. Hmmm, and I think I also thought the very best regular actors in TNG and B5 (Patrick Stewart, Andreas Katsulas, Peter Jurasik) were better than any of DS9's regular cast. Though the average acting quality may have been on a par. Guess I'll have to make the effort to properly reassess at some point. Martin
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Post by Toph on Oct 3, 2020 10:13:56 GMT
The weird thing is between TNG, DS9, and Voyager, it's DS9 that could use a remastering and new effects most.
They did the best they could at the time, but Odo's ooze form doesn't hold up at all. Some of the ship effects could stand tweaking, too. Was in a weird place where they started with practical models, then switched to CG. TNG was pre CG, and Voyager was post CG. So DS9 got stuck in a bit of a rough area. (And everyone would be better off if the Yeager-type was erased from existence)
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Post by Toph on Oct 3, 2020 10:18:15 GMT
The earlier seasons of DS9 are much better. I'm mulling this and trying to decide whether or not I agree, and I think the honest answer is my memory isn't good enough to judge. And that's because while I saw every episode of DS9 at the time, and enjoyed it, I haven't seen a single episode in the last two decades. If I remember rightly, the early seasons were more about standalone episodes, the later ones more about ongoing story. I think the reason I've never re-watched DS9 is that when it finished I had three complete recent space series fresh in my memory - TNG, DS9 and Babylon 5. (I gave up on Voyager.) And in my view TNG was the best of the three for standalone episodes, and B5 the best for an ongoing story arc, while DS9 was the second best of the three for both standalone and ongoing story. So in the subsequent decades I've been motivated to re-watch TNG for standalone episodes and B5 for ongoing story, but haven't been motivated to revisit DS9 for either. Though it may be an equally good series if you average out all each series' strengths and weaknesses. Hmmm, and I think I also thought the very best regular actors in TNG and B5 (Patrick Stewart, Andreas Katsulas, Peter Jurasik) were better than any of DS9's regular cast. Though the average acting quality may have been on a par. Guess I'll have to make the effort to properly reassess at some point. Martin Brooks and Visitor were really good in the later season.
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Post by The Doctor on Oct 3, 2020 10:18:59 GMT
I'm personally one for leaving shows as they are and not buggering around with them other than restoring picture and sound quality. If I am watching a show from 1992 I don't mind if the CG looks like it's from 1992. I take your point though.
-Ralph
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Oct 3, 2020 10:30:05 GMT
Off-topic: I'd really hate them to mess with Babylon 5's effects. They were and always will be perfect. Martin
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Oct 3, 2020 10:32:09 GMT
I can't see that happening, I don't see people wanting to do much work with JMS - he does have a habit of burning bridges and pissing people off.
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