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Post by legios on Sept 28, 2014 17:39:01 GMT
Yep, I'd agree with that. The media seem determined to treat UKiP as if it had achieved a clear success in electoral terms, even though they haven't. Actually the thing that made me growl with anger was last year or so when a BBC journalist made some comment about it being amazing how much more attention UKip was attracting from the media compared to previously. It seemed so tautological - "It's amazing how much more coverage you are getting from us now that we have decided to give you more coverage"...
Karl
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Sept 28, 2014 18:24:45 GMT
I agree it is far more balanced than a lot of other media outlets (Sky News I am looking at you, given that you are Fox News on stabilisers). I agree the BBC isn't there to give satisfaction, but it's the level of coverage given to topics and subjects that I find perplexing. Yes UKIP should be covered, but the level of coverage that UKIP's conference and the party in general gets is excessive when compared to the Green Party for example.
Andy
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Sept 28, 2014 18:39:11 GMT
I would love it if the Green Party got the same coverage as UKIP as I think the environment would be at the top of every government's agenda, up there with health and education, if the wellbeing of future generations was considered as important as the wellbeing of today's - which it is to me personally. And I hate everything UKIP stands for. But what UKIP stands for is something perhaps the majority of UK voters want - namely a curb on immigration and getting out of Europe. It _won_ this year's European elections, with 27% of the vote, ahead of the Conservatives and Labour.
24 out of the UK's 73 MEPs are UKIP.
On the whole, the voters don't care as much about climate change and loss of wildlife habitats as they do about this stuff. The Green Party is not threatening to lose the Conservatives the next general election by splitting the right-wing vote. UKIP is.
Edit: I suppose that's the one potentially good thing about UKIP. I don't want a referendum on Europe because I think my chosen side would lose (which I admit is not very democratic of me, but I think we need to get our environmental laws from somewhere), and if UKIP causes the Conservatives to lose enough seats by splitting their vote, without actually taking the seat themselves, then maybe we won't have that referendum.
Martin
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Sept 28, 2014 19:06:08 GMT
The problem is that the media (and not just the BBC) have helped created this beast. Even before UKIP were any real credible presence or threat to the electoral dominance of the Conservatives, they were getting a disproportionate level of media coverage. Now I know that other outlets have no charter to uphold and can be less scrupulous and are (hello again Sky news), but the BBC seemed far to quick to let Nigel Farage have airtime for a pithy soundbite in the early days.
They are a more palatable version of the BNP to a lot of people, I certainly hold both organisations in the same level of contempt.
I weep that divisive politics seem to hold sway at the moment.
Sadly Labour have long ceased to be any credible opposition, in Scotland they are a spent force, and the fact they seem more and more in tune with the Conservatives does them no favours. A more competent leader would have destroyed any credibility Cameron and Clegg had quite some time ago, but sadly Ed Milliband just isn't up to the task.
Andy
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Sept 28, 2014 19:14:22 GMT
Labour are doing fine in Wales. Never not been in power (either on their own, as now, or as dominant partner in a coalition), or the party with the most seats. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-29350737Martin |
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Post by The Doctor on Jun 2, 2015 11:41:34 GMT
Funny how a general election can change a perspective. I'm a lot more open to Scottish independence now that (in my opinion) a far right racist party intent on hitting the poor now has a mandate for everlasting austerity. If Cameron gets his way and the UK gets to be super racist and super idiotic by binning the Human Rights Act and/or leaving Europe then to be honest at that point I'd be saying: yip, let's be off!
Let us hope for some interest debates. I do hope that the anti-English feelings that exist in Scottish society (we don't talk about them much in Scotland but sadly they do exist) aren't fermented by idiots. I'm also very intrigued to see what Emperor Sturgeon does not next. She's impressed me a billion times more than Salmond ever did. So far.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jun 3, 2015 0:32:26 GMT
Her inability or unwillingness to rein in her footsoldiers/'The 45' leads me to think she is no better than what went on before. Not pleased about having a Tory UK government nor a Tartan Tory Scottish one.
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kayevcee
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Post by kayevcee on Jun 3, 2015 8:36:14 GMT
Footsoldiers? What have they been doing?
-Nick
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Post by legios on Jun 3, 2015 9:40:31 GMT
I think Gavin may be referring to the talk of and strategising for the next referendum which has been going on since two days after the referendum. Being down south you won't have heard but there have been several grassroots organised rallies in Edinburgh and Glasgow and there is a continuing effort to spread the word about how "the people of Scotland were tricked into voting for the wrong choice" at the referendum so there is a need to prepare the ground for the imminent next referendum (or the declaration of secession when the SNP get a majority in the Scottish Parliament at the next Scottish Election depending on who you listen to). A fair number of my friends are amongst "The 45" and, whilst most if them are happy for me to agree to disagree have has the dubious pleasure of being told my opinion is irrelevant because the UK has never been a country so I am Scottish because that is the country live in and also that Wales isn't a proper country either just a part of England by some of them.
Some of them are perfectly rational people, others are...less so. I think Gavin has more exposure proportionately to the latter group than I have.
My thoughts on the matter, from my current olympian detachment of not knowing whether I will still be up here or not if it should happen anyway, is that there tactics are rather close to those of the Quebecois seperatists - whose unending stream of referenda eventually lost them any popular support at all and has virtually destroyed their cause. Sure, a tactic that didn't work in one battle can work in another but it isn't a great precedent for that side of the equation.
Karl
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Post by legios on Jun 3, 2015 9:42:56 GMT
What I will say is that I am fascinated by the descriptions I am seeing, out of otherwise sensible and level-headed media folks, or the SNP as a left-wing party. As far as I can tell they remain as centrist as they were previously in policy terms. It is just that everyone else is passing them moving rightwards at a fair clip.
Karl
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kayevcee
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Post by kayevcee on Jun 3, 2015 18:33:24 GMT
Yeah, they're sort of where the Liberal Democrats were about 8 years ago. God help them if they follow the same path.
-Nick
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jun 3, 2015 18:55:26 GMT
The foot soldiers are indeed the True Scotland Patriots that seem to have sprung up post-Referendum. Aside from the fact they don't actually represent the 45% who voted Yes they are also the unpleasant people who have caused several incidents during political events here in Glasgow (although never as representatives of the SNP you understand...). There are also less unpleasant foot soldiers who just block pavements to make you 'engage' with them and who seem to constantly mistake the flag of Scotland for that of the SNP.
Meanwhile Nic continues her good work of making any one south of the border who doesn't give the SNP everything they demand look evil and unkind, sorry unprogressive, while doing her best to appear as reasonable as possible by asking said foot soldiers not to do the things they are doing. Which after a wink and a smile from her they still do.
As much as I can't stand Cameron he hit the nail on the head the other week when he challenged the SNP to get on with using all of the many extra powers Scotland has gained in the last few years which our glorious SNP government has failed to do so thus far lest it appear Scotland has a very good deal as part of the Union.
Sturgeon is as shrewd in her own way as Salmond ever was but I think we will see the Shouty Sturgeon of the referendum debates back again soon. Especially with the EU referendum coming up. Where she wants Scotland to control the result with all her double lock speak basically giving the finger to voters elsewhere in the UK.
The rise of the SNP has really changed the atmosphere here in Scotland. I no longer feel welcome as an English born person. If there is another referendum I will be moving on I think. Love this country but it's changing.
The SNP will flip flop whatever way gets them the Yes votes. Hence Trident.... but actually voting to stay in NATO. Standing by your guns there... Hence bringing in Torie governments in the 80s and now hating them....
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Post by The Doctor on Jun 3, 2015 20:45:00 GMT
What you describe re: 'foot soldiers' and the like...sounds like another world. I have not seen or heard anything remotely like it in Edinburger. Maybe it's a west coast thing?
-Ralph
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Jun 3, 2015 22:30:54 GMT
LIkewise, none of that in the riviera of Fife,
Andy
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jun 4, 2015 1:39:23 GMT
Well, it's here. Let us remember Glasgow voted Yes and is home to Nic Sturgeon.
I don't at all think the FS are representative of the actual 45% of people who voted Yes but they are seeking to control the conversation here to the extent that it isn't a discussion just intimidation, subtle and gross.
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Post by The Doctor on Jun 4, 2015 9:22:34 GMT
If anything the chat round this side of the country on both 'sides' is more convivial and relaxed post-referendum! I haven't seen any SNP tomfoolery on the streets and my work base is walking distance from the Parliament and I travel all across the city for work.
Ahhhhhhhh, Glasgow.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jun 4, 2015 11:44:51 GMT
Indeed. Would be nice for the UK-wide media to keep an eye on Glasgow as Scotland's largest city rather than just prancing about the gentle hills of Edinburgh. They might have noticed all that 'Red Tory' nonsense in the General Election campaign a lot earlier than they did for example.
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Post by The Doctor on Jun 4, 2015 14:54:20 GMT
Red Tories? What? Never heard of whoever they are.
-Ralph
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kayevcee
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Post by kayevcee on Jun 4, 2015 15:02:44 GMT
A common dismissive term for the Labour Party- directed more traditionally at the English faction, but I would have expected to hear it a lot more in relation to Scottish Labour after the referendum. The Lib Dems were frequently dismissed as "yellow tories" while in coalition, although in hindsight it looks like they were more of a moderating influence than anyone gave them credit for.
Given some of the presentations made by prospective Labour leaders after the election, particularly regarding their support for the proven self-defeating lunacy of austerity and alarming willingness to follow the right wing press' line on immigration, I think the monicker fits better than ever. Better than it should, certainly.
-Nick
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Post by legios on Jun 4, 2015 16:46:07 GMT
The SNP will flip flop whatever way gets them the Yes votes. Hence Trident.... but actually voting to stay in NATO.. In fairness, the SNPs grasp of Foreign and Defence policy is more "borked" than mendacious. Given their previous leader declared both "an independent Scotland would not have been part of any of the foreign wars of the last two decades" and "an independent Scotland would remain a strong ally of the United States" in the same week, whilst clearly being unable to see the obvious incompatibility there. And that is before one got into their inability to explain whether they intended to separate the Scottish Battallions as were and give them back their independent logistics tails and regimental identities, or if they were talking about raising them at Regimental Strength again (and how they were intending to raise the manpower to do that). It is all very well to say "The SNP will reinstate the Scottish Regiments" but surely they had to know that some wag would actually ask them to be clear what they meant and actually decide what the answer was? I have learned, in honesty not to pay attention to what most of the major parties say in terms of defence and foreign affairs, because it never seems to amount to anything clear until they actually have a chance, and are prepared, to listen to the Civil Service as to what the real world situation is as opposed to the one in the politician's collective head. Karl |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jun 4, 2015 21:40:38 GMT
Red Tories? What? Never heard of whoever they are. -Ralph It emerged as a new SNP strategy in Glasgow in the last week or so of the General Election. Calling Labour Labour seemed to be banned and it was all Red Tories Out etc. Usually said and placarded most commonly in the middle of any non-SNP rally. And if that was ineffective it was usually spat in Labour supporters and/or politicians faces from a distance of less than a foot. Very unpleasant scenes that Sturgeon condemned and said were nothing to do with the SNP campaign. It was however remarkably well organised and a consistent occurrence. The SNP were forced to discipline several of their members when it emerged they were SNP members and ones who loved getting up close with the party leadership as revealed by several newspapers who have all gone quiet now the SNP have swept to power. |
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kayevcee
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Post by kayevcee on Jun 5, 2015 9:26:00 GMT
It may have gained popularity then, but the "red tories" monicker has been doing the rounds since Blair.
-Nick
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jun 5, 2015 10:13:15 GMT
Never heard it before until the General Election, not even during the Referendum when similar campaigning tactics were (officially not) deployed.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Sept 13, 2015 15:32:33 GMT
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Post by Andy Turnbull on Sept 13, 2015 17:52:16 GMT
It was always going to happen.
If the EU referendum has the UK as a whole going on a different direction than the one Scotland votes for it presents Sturgeon with a clear mandate for another referendum. It's only a matter of time.
Andy
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Sept 13, 2015 18:02:17 GMT
She lost that mandate last year when we voted No. She'll only get it back by boot strapping it on to other things she knows people will blindly vote SNP for.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Sept 13, 2015 18:05:56 GMT
Ticks me right off. We voted to stay in the Union (for better or worse) but the SNP don't seem to get how being in a political union works nor that the people voted against independence and there is now a mandate (in an SNP sense of the word!) that they should respect.
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Post by The Doctor on Sept 13, 2015 21:00:55 GMT
There is a clear and genuine mandate for another referendum if the UK leaves the EU. Otherwise no. So let's hope the people of the Uk don't decide to be super racist and decide to leave the Uk when that particular referendum comes up.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Sept 14, 2015 8:05:56 GMT
There is no mandate to decide to leave if overall the UK decides to leave. Scotland decided by democratic means to stay in the Union and be a full part of it last year. While I hope we stay in he EU I think it is a dangerous and unfair precedent for individual parts of that union to suddenly decide on what parts of the union they'd like to play along with and which parts they don't want to.
If Scotland wanted to avoid all possibility of an EU referendum then we should have voted Labour or Lib Democrats and not SNP at the last General Election to have kept the Tories out of power or forced them into a coalition or minority government where they couldn't get their way all the time.
The last referendum only deepened divisions within Scotland and between Scotland and the rest of the Union. And that has continued since. It's time we paid the piper by respecting the voters decisions rather than allowing us to be held to ransom every time the SNP threaten us with referendums nobody asked for and which were voted against fairly barely a year ago.
I don't like our current government (in London or Edinburgh) but throwing our toys out of he pram isn't the answer. Nor is desperately trying to abandon the union at every opportunity.
Sort out the Scottish NHS and educational system first. Then come back and ask for a referendum. Priorities please...
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Sept 14, 2015 8:11:16 GMT
As a committed Europhile I must say that most people I know who want to leave the EU are not super racist.
My problem with the Scottish referendum is that leaving the UK is something that would be very difficult to reverse if the people decided after a couple of years that they'd made a mistake. Far harder to reverse even than the UK leaving the EU would be. The majority in Scotland could be against independence 95% of the time, now and in the future, but all the SNP has to do is to hold the referendum on a day when the mood swings in their favour, and that's it, done.
Which is why I think 'Yes' should need to achieve a threshold higher than 50%, to show that it was the settled opinion of Scotland rather than just a snapshot in time. Or if that's undemocratic, they should have 2 or 3 referenda at different stages of the divorce proceedings, to make sure everyone still wanted to go through with it, and they'd have to get more than 50% every time or abort the process.
Actually, that should probably happen with the EU referendum too. First vote in principle to leave, and then vote again six months later once the details have been set out (e.g. remaining in the European Economic Area or not, London reimbursing poor areas for loss of EU funding or not, etc.) on whether people still wanted to leave.
Martin
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