The Huff
Thunderjet
Hufferlover
Posts: 4,243
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Post by The Huff on Jul 8, 2019 15:11:31 GMT
Any theories that Meanstreak was supposed to be a Decepticon? Apart from the slightly evil name, he has a Decepticon symbol on his Transformers Logo on the doors.
Also, could the second wave of Cyberjets have just meant to have been more Decepticons?
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 8, 2019 15:17:32 GMT
Any theories that Meanstreak was supposed to be a Decepticon? Apart from the slightly evil name, he has a Decepticon symbol on his Transformers Logo on the doors. I think you could make a good case for that: tfwiki.net/wiki/MeanstreakAlso, could the second wave of Cyberjets have just meant to have been more Decepticons? The theory linked to at tmukhub.proboards.com/post/374317/thread says it they should be different colours for *The*SAME* Decepticons ala the Constructicons, Dinobots, Heroes/Combat Heros |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 8, 2019 15:24:07 GMT
Alternatively the jets just used previous names to keep the copyright and were never intended to look similar despite Air Raid sharing a bit of black? I don't think so. Air Raid's name had been effectively copyright secured the previous year with the G2 Aerialbot. Securing Copyright wasn't really on Hasbro's radar at the time. Additionally Air Raid is probably a black Cyberjet as Stealth Bombers are, eh, black. Nothing more to it. If it was just Air Raid, maybe. But there's a whole mess of stuff going on here, with Strafe also resembling his G1 versions, the red seemingly not being appropriate for Cons, the blue not being appropriate for Autobots and the Autobots having Con symbols. Start pulling on that last one, with the blue Cyberjets becoming the cons and the red Cyberjets becoming the Autobots and things fall into place. |
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Post by The Doctor on Jul 8, 2019 15:53:23 GMT
Phil has fallen into a pool of madness today.
1995 is still the era when Transformers was mostly about new characters. We're a way off from homages being a big thing. There are a lot of random name reuses at this time. It's still a young enough product line that Hasbro hasn't cottoned on to the nostalgia market just yet (though it was creeping in).
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jul 8, 2019 17:01:43 GMT
They are both planes and have white on them? We may be approaching 'Bible Code' levels of misreading selected data here... 😉
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Post by Toph on Jul 8, 2019 20:10:35 GMT
If the cyberjet decoes matched their G1 namesakes, then they wouldn't be G2.
This is post 2005 thinking, not 1995 thinking. I reject this theory on the grounds that it completely does nit fit with the logic established in G2. Now if they had come out anytime past 2005, I would be on board.
It was 2004/05, practically on the nose, when Hasbro switched to the name+deco= update/homage philosophy. Before then, it was incredibly rare to see reused G1 names applied to G1 deco, on similar altmodes homages. Even in alternators, which is arguably the prototype Classics line.
If there were other instances of new g2 molds of name reuses getting decoes that recalled their namesakes (even if wrong altmodes), I would agree with the theory.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 8, 2019 20:36:10 GMT
Can I pick you up on the last point in order to clarify something? If there were other instances of new g2 molds of name reuses getting decoes that recalled their namesakes (even if wrong altmodes), I would agree with the theory. I'm suggesting that the original versions of the toys would be the red limbed versions, but released as Autobots. And there are other new G2 toys whose original versions are deliberate homage to previous toys, notably the Hero toys Optimus and Megatron. The Op even has the correct deco in robot mode. The blue limbed versions would have still been the second wave repaints, only as new Decepticon characters. Except something went a bit wrong and the red limbed first wave got released with the Decepticon names and the blue limbed versions became the Autobots, in everywhere bar Europe. |
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Post by Bogatan on Jul 8, 2019 20:45:26 GMT
If the cyberjet decoes matched their G1 namesakes, then they wouldn't be G2. This is post 2005 thinking, not 1995 thinking. I reject this theory on the grounds that it completely does nit fit with the logic established in G2. Now if they had come out anytime past 2005, I would be on board. It was 2004/05, practically on the nose, when Hasbro switched to the name+deco= update/homage philosophy. Before then, it was incredibly rare to see reused G1 names applied to G1 deco, on similar altmodes homages. Even in alternators, which is arguably the prototype Classics line. If there were other instances of new g2 molds of name reuses getting decoes that recalled their namesakes (even if wrong altmodes), I would agree with the theory. My first reaction was that this was too extreme of a statement, but going as far back as later Action Masters. Thundercracker Turbo Master Doublepunch Constructicons Rescueforce Sideswipe Starscream Ramjet 2nd wave Dinobots Megatron Dreadwind All 4 combiners Hero Megatron All gobot repaints (except Prime and Megatron) Laser Cycle repaints Laser Prime Cyberjet repaints Ironhide Machine Wars (except Hubcab I suppose) BW Grimlock and on and on and on. The only character that kept something like their G1 colours are Prime (G1, Hero and gobot) Gobot Megatron (ish), Jazz and first wave Dinobots. Minibots are I can see arguements for both ways. |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jul 8, 2019 22:12:28 GMT
Let us remember the proposed Laser Cycles Jazz and Soundwave and Autorollers Prime and Hound. Reuse of names, hardly homages.
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Post by Toph on Jul 9, 2019 1:46:13 GMT
Can I pick you up on the last point in order to clarify something? If there were other instances of new g2 molds of name reuses getting decoes that recalled their namesakes (even if wrong altmodes), I would agree with the theory. I'm suggesting that the original versions of the toys would be the red limbed versions, but released as Autobots. And there are other new G2 toys whose original versions are deliberate homage to previous toys, notably the Hero toys Optimus and Megatron. The Op even has the correct deco in robot mode. The blue limbed versions would have still been the second wave repaints, only as new Decepticon characters. Except something went a bit wrong and the red limbed first wave got released with the Decepticon names and the blue limbed versions became the Autobots, in everywhere bar Europe. I understand, but I disagree because all of G2 suggests otherwise. And deco similarities are coincidence. Hooligan, who would be Jetfire, shoots it in the foot. Because if they were even vaguely trying to go with the G1 decoes, he'd at least be white, even if no red is present. While the autobot and decepticon factions clearly got swapped, I just don't think there were any characters attached to them while they were being designed/decoed. Just like Dreadwing/Smokescreen, ATB Megatron/Starscream, General Optimus/Srg Hound, Lasercycle Soundwave/Jazz, and the various gobots, the names were attached after the fact to preserve trademarks. And assuming Strafe and Jetfire further got their names swapped, which would give Jetfire the predominantly white Spacecase deco, and Strafe the predominantly orange Hooligan deco, I still don't see it because it's Strafe. Strafe.Strafe's claim to fame is being an arm of a combiner. At the time he was only slightly less obscure than the second wave autobot pretenders. Jetfire was only better off by way of being Big Toy who had two or three episodes dedicated to selling him. But really only kids who were around back then (IE: us) would remember that. G2's internal logic for names and decoes just didn't work the way any other TF line does. |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 9, 2019 7:12:00 GMT
But I am saying Jetfire *should* have been white, and have tried to explain why he isn't. At no point do I say Strafe and Jetfire get their names swapped.
Chronologically:
1) Someone dreams up the Cybertron Jet assortment using Air Raid, Jetfire & Strafe in what is approximately their original colours of Black & red, White & red and White & red respectively. A repaint wave into new Decepticons is planned. I'd almost be willing to stick my neck out and say this bit was done by Takara, and that would then make the Cyberjet Portmanteau make sense. Original TF decos, with original TF names, the original intention.
2) But someone (else) points out that the assortment contains two white and red jets (just like the cars should have contained red vehicles) and Jetfire gets changed to orange. It may have been intended to change Strafe, not Jetfire, as Strafe's less well known, but for whatever reason Jetfire gets changed. So we now have the colour schemes released as the Cyberjets, with original G1 tf naes.
3) Someone (else) then (somehow) swaps the names and factions over, resulting in the toy we see at retail. Accident? Deliberate? Someone arguing that all the planes should be Decepticons? At which point the original someone in 1 despairs!
4) The redecos are then released with the Autobot names in everywhere but Europe, where they go out with the 'Con names, but nobody notices or cares about the 'Con symbols till their Japanese release when extra stickers are included to cover them!
I can see it from the point of view that this is someone who cares having an original very good idea which then gets changed and mangled by people who don't or with different priorities.
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Post by Toph on Jul 9, 2019 12:43:52 GMT
If the cyberjet decoes matched their G1 namesakes, then they wouldn't be G2. This is post 2005 thinking, not 1995 thinking. I reject this theory on the grounds that it completely does nit fit with the logic established in G2. Now if they had come out anytime past 2005, I would be on board. It was 2004/05, practically on the nose, when Hasbro switched to the name+deco= update/homage philosophy. Before then, it was incredibly rare to see reused G1 names applied to G1 deco, on similar altmodes homages. Even in alternators, which is arguably the prototype Classics line. If there were other instances of new g2 molds of name reuses getting decoes that recalled their namesakes (even if wrong altmodes), I would agree with the theory. My first reaction was that this was too extreme of a statement, but going as far back as later Action Masters. Thundercracker Turbo Master Doublepunch Constructicons Rescueforce Sideswipe Starscream Ramjet 2nd wave Dinobots Megatron Dreadwind All 4 combiners Hero Megatron All gobot repaints (except Prime and Megatron) Laser Cycle repaints Laser Prime Cyberjet repaints Ironhide Machine Wars (except Hubcab I suppose) BW Grimlock and on and on and on. The only character that kept something like their G1 colours are Prime (G1, Hero and gobot) Gobot Megatron (ish), Jazz and first wave Dinobots. Minibots are I can see arguements for both ways. Even going past BW (which did have it's share of homages, but just none people recognize as such), into RiD, Energon, and Universe, the triple combo of name/deco/altmode almost never happens. Car Robots, except for God Magnus, none of the new molds are the straight forward homages as we think of them. None of them were ever intended to be new versions of "classic characters" beyond him. So RiD does get a bit of leniency. But even then, the only names-to-molds that made sense as "classic characters" were Optimus, Ultra Magnus, Prowl, and Mirage. The rest of them were almost as odd as G2 (grimlock the excavator, jhiaxus the orange jet, not-jetfire Stormjet), which shows they cared more about recycling trademarks and snagging new ones, over "proper" homages. Armada was all over the place, but thanks to Aaron Archer, we don't have to guess or reason. "Wheeljack sounds like Carjack, so it's a better name for a decepticon. Even though the character intentionally looks like Sideswipe. Oh, and actual Sideswipe has nothing to do with original sideswipe, because why not?" And there are lots of comments he gave us that shows quite a few names in this time (Perceptor included) were deliberate, and deliberately not applied to homages. Though Armada is the official beginning of "every starscream must get thundercracker and skywarp repaints" (which didn't really kick into gear until Classics). Armada was also the point when Jetfire graduated from c-list to a-list. Energon got even weirder. A springer colored copter named Bulkhead, a wheeljack update in proper colors, named Downshift (because they blew Wheeljack on a decepticon), a blue police themed F1 style racer named Prowl, an Ironhide update named towline (because vans tow things?) not in Ironhide's colors. A blue SUV named Ironhide, a decepticon speedboat named Mirage. But then you get Mega/Galvatron, Ravage, Scorponok, Slugslinger and Arcee. And homages outside the franchise, like Cruellock and Signalflare. Universe was all over the place. Universe was G2 2.0, only kinda made less sense. (At least I haven't been able to figure out a working internal logic to their choices) But Cybertron is where it starts to gel, though. It's where they really started to make an effort of name/deco/alt mode (though they didn't bind themselves to it). Even applies to new characters, as we don't get random names that don't work for the altmodes nearly as much. It's Cybertron where they really start to figure out how to cater to nostalgia buyers. |
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The Huff
Thunderjet
Hufferlover
Posts: 4,243
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Post by The Huff on Jul 9, 2019 13:35:41 GMT
Yeah, I think with the Cyberjets it's a bit of a stretch to think they was any thought gone into the names than simple nameslaps. TF was pretty much dead - these were pretty much the last toys released and the line was going nowhere. There were no 'fans' working at Hasbro then to give anything any thought and I don't think any one cared.
I think we (Transformer fans) are mostly very OCD about things sometimes - we like things to line up, we like things to match etc. and when they don't we have to have a reason for it. We don't like it when they make Headmasters of Astrotrain and Perceptor but not of Snapdragon. Four original Aerialbots and a helicopter etc.
I think that's why there is all this petition of Cyclonus being Skywarp - because if Thundercracker is Scourge then it would all line up perfectly - it makes sense (Joker voice) 'It's all part of the plan!' But Unicron was pretty much like Hasbro were at the end of the G2 line - he is this powerful being with a task and just sees little insignificant robots that he needs to re-market so he just selects them and names them at random. He doesn't see three Insecticons and two Jets, just five minions.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Jul 9, 2019 14:08:29 GMT
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Jul 9, 2019 16:30:38 GMT
Some robots share design elements yes, but that's a very long way from being a direct and deliberate homage.
The Autorollers are green construction vehicles. *shrugs*
I get no Megatron vibe from Road Pig. Especially not just because he has a weapon on his forearm.
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Post by Toph on Jul 9, 2019 22:31:28 GMT
Aye. G2 just... doesn't work that way.
Any other line and I'd think you'd have something, because we know how executive meddling (or lack of oversight, which is the accusation here) can ruin things.
But the people behind G2 were largely the same people behind G1, trying to adapt to a new environment, and target a new audience, by using new technologies. They didn't expect a few of the now teenagers who were the original kid audience to still be sticking around.
None of the creators were fans, and none let their work be tainted by nostalgia.
Heck, Hasbro had only just realized Megatron was a major important character to the franchise. In that light, they're not going to care about Technobot Limb #3.
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The Huff
Thunderjet
Hufferlover
Posts: 4,243
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Post by The Huff on Jul 10, 2019 6:53:14 GMT
Only a few years ago, Hasbro thought Technobot Strafe was the original Swoop!
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Post by Bogatan on Jul 10, 2019 14:08:29 GMT
But I am saying Jetfire *should* have been white, and have tried to explain why he isn't. At no point do I say Strafe and Jetfire get their names swapped. Chronologically: 1) Someone dreams up the Cybertron Jet assortment using Air Raid, Jetfire & Strafe in what is approximately their original colours of Black & red, White & red and White & red respectively. A repaint wave into new Decepticons is planned. I'd almost be willing to stick my neck out and say this bit was done by Takara, and that would then make the Cyberjet Portmanteau make sense. Original TF decos, with original TF names, the original intention. 2) But someone (else) points out that the assortment contains two white and red jets (just like the cars should have contained red vehicles) and Jetfire gets changed to orange. It may have been intended to change Strafe, not Jetfire, as Strafe's less well known, but for whatever reason Jetfire gets changed. So we now have the colour schemes released as the Cyberjets, with original G1 tf naes. 3) Someone (else) then (somehow) swaps the names and factions over, resulting in the toy we see at retail. Accident? Deliberate? Someone arguing that all the planes should be Decepticons? At which point the original someone in 1 despairs! 4) The redecos are then released with the Autobot names in everywhere but Europe, where they go out with the 'Con names, but nobody notices or cares about the 'Con symbols till their Japanese release when extra stickers are included to cover them! I can see it from the point of view that this is someone who cares having an original very good idea which then gets changed and mangled by people who don't or with different priorities. That wouldnt be a bad theory in isolation, but with the gobots, laser cycles, autorollers and cyberjets all following the pattern of new mould as new characters later repainted and given G1 names, but (mostly) not in G1 colour schemes, I doubt the jets had a different developement. Hasbro were well cabable of proper updates (PMOP, Goldbug, Pretender Classics and Actionmasters) but during G2 that clearly wasnt the plan. Colours had to be vivid. If they knew the plan was to reuse the old cartoon then that explains why most of the reissues were something close to their original colours, but perked up enough not ot look out of place with the new moulds. They likely weren't making G2 for people who had bought G1. I doubt the idea of a collectors market was there yet. Actually I could believe the first Botcon in 94 might have spurred on the idea of reusing the G1 names for later repaints. (not sure of the timeline would work for that or not) Also I suspect much of the design teams at Takara and hasbro had been in place since the beginning, while some of them might have wanted another crack at certain designs generally I imagine they wanted to be doing new things. |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Aug 6, 2019 6:47:29 GMT
ROBOTMASTER STAR SABER IS *NOT* A MICROMASTER!!!
THE END. |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Aug 6, 2019 6:55:41 GMT
It is, and if you don't agree I'll lock you in the loft too.
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 6, 2019 10:05:54 GMT
ROBOTMASTER STAR SABER IS *NOT* A MICROMASTER!!!
THE END. You are correct and we have explained this to Phil many, many times. -Ralph |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Aug 6, 2019 11:30:41 GMT
I suspect I know why this matter has arisen, in which case the punishment is apropriate
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Post by Benn on Aug 6, 2019 11:31:28 GMT
??
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Post by Philip Ayres on Aug 6, 2019 11:44:52 GMT
All will be revealed in less than a fortnight.
M, has the postman brought you something that has caused this outburst?
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Aug 6, 2019 12:40:12 GMT
Yes.
And you needed an Intervention.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Aug 6, 2019 12:41:12 GMT
It is, and if you don't agree I'll lock you in the loft too. But is it really a loft?? |
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Post by Philip Ayres on Aug 6, 2019 15:08:30 GMT
No, it's a cell/sweat lodge for those who dare disagree with me.....
.....which is why Burns has spent so long up there.
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 6, 2019 15:29:19 GMT
Yes. And you needed an Intervention. I will find out later what Bad Thing Phil has done and stand ready to pass judgement. -Ralph |
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Post by The Doctor on Aug 6, 2019 15:30:14 GMT
No, it's a cell/sweat lodge for those who dare disagree with me..... .....which is why Burns has spent so long up there. It is like The Box in 'Bridge on the River Kwai'. -Ralph |
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Post by Toph on Aug 6, 2019 15:45:09 GMT
I've found that it's a fairly... lofty place.
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