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Post by Bogatan on Apr 21, 2024 21:42:08 GMT
I'm glad they skipped the burn, because it was a heavily flawed concept to me. There's no more warp because a lonely kelpian on a dilithium planet threw a fit? But that's just the cause. I don't like it, but looking past that it continues to not make sense. I mean Dilithium isn't the only power source for warp in canon. Romulans used artificial black holes. Dilithium doesn't exist on earth (I believe, or am I crossing my signals with naquita?), so who knows what Zephram Cochrane used? The Borg don't use dilithium. I could be very wrong, or at least relying on information from novels, but I dont think dilithium creates the power, it channels the power from other sources. The federation uses matter anti matter reactions. Romulans micro black holes. But everyone (more or less) is using dilithium. And I dont think its that there are no alternatives to dilithium, its just that that is the most efficient. Cochrane was using something else which was sufficient to reach a very low warp speed but you wouldnt want to be travelling between planets with it. If this crisis only affected the Federation, we're 100+ years after the fact. You're telling me in a galaxy full of technologies non reliant on dilithium, the federation wouldn't have adapted? The RomuVulcans wouldn't have retrofitted nearby starfleet ships with old romulan engines so they can head out to check up on people? Daystrom Institute wouldn't have used that Borg knowledge to start opening borg conduits. There are non warp/dilithium alternatives but it doesnt mean they would be suitable in the circumstances. Bajorans travelled to Cardassia by lightsail, but it didn't appear the most stable option and relied on solar winds, limiting the available routes and doesnt seem as though it would neccesarilly "scale up". As for other technologies, who knows, when Star Trek shows the Federation attempting to use them they often require the use of a warp field or energy from the deflector dish both of which go back to dilithium crystals. Dilithium has always been shown as a limited resource which is why Trek has shown multiple times there efforts to break away from it, but at least up until 2400, 200 years for the Federation and about 1000 years for Vulcans they hadnt found a better option. Not hard to imagine 600 years later it was still the primary method of travel. If all the car batteries in the world suddenly got corrupted in a way that we can't even make more, cars aren't the only way we can get around. We still got trains and planes, and within a year we'd have come up with an entirely new replacement that could be retrofitted into all of those billions of existing cars. I feel like the better comparison would be if all fossil fuel blew up tommorow. Some countries might be less affected than others initially, but the entire supply chain would break down. Rare earth materials needed for renewables and batteries etc are mostly coming from places like China that would definitely be hit badly by the loss of fossil fuels. And even if they weren't its hard to imagine during such a crisis there would be any way of producing the materials to completely replace fossil fuels. 100 years later things would defintely still be screwed. Also even going with your car battery comparison, you have to remember its not just that they stopped working and could be eventually replaced. They blew up. Thats 95%+ of all cars, trucks, construction vehicles, mining equipment gone. Along with the people working on them. Everywhere. the Federation and every other race, probably lost the vast majority of active duty crews in an instant. The ones that didn't die were mostly going to be stranded either on ship, station or a planet that could no longer reach any other ship, station or planet. The explanation for The Burn was incredibly silly, but no worse than many Trek stories, but I honestly think the effect of it was a good way to "destroy" the Federation without the Federation failing. Seeing them fall due to a lost war or corruption would have been far more depressing then something completely out of there control. It was the equivilant of modern society failing because of the erruption of a super volcano or meteor strike rather than a nuclear war. The end result may not be that different but one is less of a failure than the other. |
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Post by Bogatan on Apr 21, 2024 21:51:47 GMT
The angle I was hoping they would go for wasn't really being about the fall, I was hoping for more storytelling focus on the idea of rebuilding - the optimism of saying that we have taken a knock, but that is a reason to rebuild and to make things not only as good as they were before but make them even better. Not dwelling on the fall, but on the rising again. But I'm not sure I am explaining this terribly well. Karl I do wish they hadnt rushed to fix the burn. Discovery showing up and almost immediately saving the galaxy is a very Discovery thing to do and I dont like it. A season (or more) of them just trying to help would have been so much better. Those first few episodes when they go to Earth and get them and the colony talking again was great. Exploring the state of the former federation and neighbours and helping where they could should have been the point. Instead its wrapped up in 10 episodes and they were on to the next mission of ....... saving the galaxy *sigh* |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Apr 21, 2024 22:13:54 GMT
More of the same in the new season! Discovery is a very well produced show with, on the whole, a great cast. It is just let down by increasingly weak characterisation, implausible story beats and uninteresting plots. Feel like I need to go back and watch some of the earlier episodes to remind myself that it was better. As reminded of in the latest episode. |
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Apr 22, 2024 5:30:02 GMT
Oh I am so glad they skipped a proper full-on 'Fall of the Federation' storyline. Star Trek is optimistic about The Future so that would have been horrible to watch. But then I vastly prefer s1-3 of DS9 before it morphed into the War Is Hell Show, so I may be an outlier in my Trek tastes. I agree that Star Trek isn't and shouldn't be a space war show, it should be a space exploration, adventure and sometimes politics show. But if you're going to keep a franchise going for decades, and have it span centuries, it's going to get stale if there is only one acceptable state of play, namely an enlightened United Federation of Planets covering the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, permanently there forever. History isn't like that, and even if it's a generally positive future being depicted (which I agree it should be), it has to be two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back. I agree with those who said the explanation behind The Burn was silly, but I like the idea of Something disrupting the comfortable order of things in the Star Trek universe, which doesn't get cured by a magic bullet. I liked the idea introduced in the TNG episode 'Force of Nature' that ships travelling at high warp speeds were damaging space in the Galaxy, and everyone would have to start limiting themselves to warp five in future. I thought it would be interesting to see a Star Trek universe where it took a lot longer to get from planet to planet. But they never did anything with it / quietly forgot about it, presumably because they wanted a show where the Enterprise could be anywhere in any given week.  Martin |
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Post by Llama God on Apr 22, 2024 7:24:06 GMT
The angle I was hoping they would go for wasn't really being about the fall, I was hoping for more storytelling focus on the idea of rebuilding - the optimism of saying that we have taken a knock, but that is a reason to rebuild and to make things not only as good as they were before but make them even better. Not dwelling on the fall, but on the rising again. But I'm not sure I am explaining this terribly well. Karl Absolutely in agreement with you there. One of the core things about "standard" Trek is that it shows us a hopeful, optimistic future. The question is: How does it get there? Having shat the bed completely with that one in Enterprise in favour of giving us bombastic, action-filled episodes instead, Discovery would've been in a good place to show us a slightly different version of the story. Alas, they passed up on that unique opportunity as well. I found this especially annoying at the time, because of when it was released. Season 3 was released at the tail end of the Trump administration, and the whole concept of learning to rebuild and coming together to make something positive was very relevant then (and, sadly, remains so). And that was on the verge of making Discovery the most timely and relevant Star Trek to date. But alas, they couldn't resist the urge to give us another season with a universe-ending threat that needed to be solved, and could only be solved by our heroes. Oh well... |
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 22, 2024 8:37:27 GMT
Oh, don't start me on 'Force of Nature'!
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Apr 22, 2024 9:00:06 GMT
I agree with those who said the explanation behind The Burn was silly, but I like the idea of Something disrupting the comfortable order of things in the Star Trek universe, which doesn't get cured by a magic bullet. I liked the idea introduced in the TNG episode 'Force of Nature' that ships travelling at high warp speeds were damaging space in the Galaxy, and everyone would have to start limiting themselves to warp five in future. I thought it would be interesting to see a Star Trek universe where it took a lot longer to get from planet to planet. But they never did anything with it / quietly forgot about it, presumably because they wanted a show where the Enterprise could be anywhere in any given week. Martin Now, you see THAT would have been the best way to achieve the same results, I think. It would have affected almost every warp culture equally. They had the warnings. They knew what was happening. They did patchwork fixes at best, and said "hashtag fixed yolo," when all they did was just prolong the problem and made it a future generation's problem. And it's an allegory that works amazing well for what we're doing right now. I think that is the most Star Trek way to address the climate crisis. I was going to bring it up, but I was about to run late for work, lol. I'm glad someone else pointed it out. |
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Apr 22, 2024 10:59:52 GMT
Oh, don't start me on 'Force of Nature'! -Ralph Great episode. |
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 22, 2024 11:10:59 GMT
One of the worst ever. How to kill any drama in your action/adventure in ten easy steps.
-Ralph
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Apr 22, 2024 13:06:50 GMT
Nah. If it was handled properly after it should have ratcheted it up. High warp should only be used sparingly etc, so when it is used it is for something important.
A pox on Voyager for hand waving it away.
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 22, 2024 15:03:29 GMT
A boon on Voyager for waving it away!
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Apr 22, 2024 17:58:37 GMT
A great in-universe reason why they should use warp 3 or warp 4 instead of immediately and exclusively going to warp 7 and warp 8.
Because without some sort of restrictions, it makes no sense that they would ever use lower warp speeds.
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 22, 2024 20:56:13 GMT
It's the same reason all trains, planes, boats etc don't all batter along at top speeds all the time. It would knacker the engines, etc!
-Ralph
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Post by Toph on Apr 22, 2024 23:22:38 GMT
Yeah but there's a huge difference. If you go 50mph in your car instead of 80mph, you get there a few minutes to a few hours later.
The difference between warp 5 and warp 8 can be days to years.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Apr 23, 2024 5:21:17 GMT
We should also remember that the warp factor scale isn't linear, and in the TNG/DS9 era (though not in the All Good Things more distant future), warp 10 means infinite speed.
Unlike 100 miles per hour.
Which doesn't.
Martin
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Post by legios on Apr 23, 2024 21:52:22 GMT
Energy input required also scales with the warp factor curve, increasingly exponentially as pseudo-velocity increases, tending towards infinity - and no ship carries infinite amounts of matter or antimatter. So blatting along at warp 9.99 all the time will severely limit the range at which a ship can operate, whereas cruising along at warp 5 will have a vastly increased range before it needs to meet up with a tanker or visit a friendly port.
In short, if you don't need to be somewhere for three weeks then it makes more sense to do it in the three weeks than to consume All The Fuel to do it in 3 days.
Karl
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Jim
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Post by Jim on Apr 24, 2024 12:24:01 GMT
The main reason I remember that the warp factor scale isn't linear is the Peter David (giant!) novel Vendetta. Which was mostly terrible fanwank, enough so that it even annoyed me as a 14yo, but the bit at the end where she's pushing the doomsday machine to its limits and you get these repeated ever-shortening chapters has always stayed with me.
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Post by legios on Apr 24, 2024 16:49:21 GMT
Just a few more minutes
Just a few more minute
Just a few more minut
Just a few more minu
I quite liked Vendetta. I thought it was a decent attempt to approach to topic of vengeance and obsession and the damage that they can do both to the one experiencing them and to the bystanders they harm along the way.
Didn't really mind the fanwank to be honest. It has always seemed to me that spin-off novels are exactly the right place to go a bit mad and do the bonkers stuff that won't fly on television. (Also still think it did more interesting things with the Borg than the majority of their TV appearances to be honest).
Karl
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Post by Llama God on Apr 25, 2024 7:01:50 GMT
Yeah, I'm a fan of Vendetta as well - or at least I was, it's been a good few years since I borrowed it from the library to read whilst I was at secondary school... But yes, that repeated "just a few more minutes" has always stuck with me, and I'd agree with the Kaptain that what they did with the Borg was certainly more interesting than anything we've seen post (and including) First Contact...
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Post by Jim on Apr 25, 2024 8:20:32 GMT
I certainly enjoyed reading it at the time (multiple times even!) but the urge to tie everything together, even when it's tying together some of my favourite TOS/TNG episodes, is one of those things that eludes me and one of the minor niggles I have with Disco et al. It makes everything seem smaller.
At least it was very readable (I'm not sure PAD could do otherwise at his peak), some of the other longer Trek novels of the time were a bit of a slog.
I will see your First Contact, and raise you The Best of Both Worlds. And the first few minutes of Emissary.
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Post by Bogatan on Apr 25, 2024 15:56:22 GMT
And thats the half way point of the final season.
Its still Discovering along.
Honestly not sure what to make of this one. A pretty solid idea bogged down with flashbacks I dont care about* and a dose of nostalgia that at best adds basically one line that I kind of like and at worst is distracting and potentially a completely unneeded continuity issue for people who care about those sorts of things.
The result: boredom.
*when the Walking Dead did one too many of these flashback stories I quit and never went back. This wasnt that bad, but its a storytelling choice I've really come to hate. Im sure there are good examples of it, but Im drawing a blank.
Its been almost 20 years (and I know it happened before) but Im sure this still happens because of the success of Lost: Season 1.
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Post by Grand Moff Muffin on Apr 28, 2024 16:07:26 GMT
Finished season 4. Enjoyed the alien first contact elements, but overall it wasn't as interesting as seasons 1-3, and the speed with which the Federation reset button is hit is intensely frustrating.
Martin
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Post by The Doctor on Apr 28, 2024 21:17:11 GMT
I thought it was the best season.
-Ralph
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Post by Llama God on Apr 29, 2024 7:23:02 GMT
I very much liked the concept behind the aliens in Season 4 - a very hard SF idea, and the kind of thing I like to see in Trek. The main problem I had with it was that that's the kind of idea that would be one episode of TNG and sorted. I'd forgive stringing it out over a couple, but it felt overlong for the whole season. And too much of the story was driven by people (especially Book) just making stupid decisions for the sake of driving the plot along. And yes, as discussed above, the Federation reset was disappointing...
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Apr 29, 2024 11:08:56 GMT
This is all happening again in season 5..... |
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Post by Llama God on Apr 30, 2024 7:15:57 GMT
To an extent. Although so far no-one's been annoyingly stupid. Not yet, anyway. But I am looking closely at Book at all times.
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Post by Fortmax2020 on Apr 30, 2024 9:21:59 GMT
They've all been dropped on their heads. Again.
That Captain gets fired... Let's make him first officer!
A RED DIRECTIVE. Whatever that is it is urgent. But yes, take your time at Trill.
Why is Tilly still on the ship??
Oh look, Book is emotionally compromised. Again. Sure, I'll take him and only him on the mission to confront the source of that.
Should we really be reassembling the Progenitor tech on our starship given how dangerous it is? And then just leave it on the desk while we all walk out the room??
How have they all mastered a thousand years of history and technology so quickly??
Why are they even still on active duty full stop??
It is Homeland levels of stupidity. |
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Post by Bogatan on Apr 30, 2024 20:18:58 GMT
{Spoiler}They've all been dropped on their heads. Again.
That Captain gets fired... Let's make him first officer!
How have they all mastered a thousand years of history and technology so quickly??
Why are they even still on active duty full stop??
In reverse order, I feel like they just about got away with the last one, they were the only crew with experience of the spore drive etc.
The complete lack of adjustment period is a major annoyance. At the very least they should have had an advisor onboard. I thought Adira was going to fill that role, but then they got almost forgotten about for a while and have had very little to do ever since.
Raynor is exactly the character they should have introduced two years ago as Saru's no 2 after Burnhams then most recent disciplinary issue lost her the job. |
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Post by Toph on Apr 30, 2024 22:42:14 GMT
Had they introduced and placed Raynor (or a captain like him) as Captain of Discovery when they recommissioned her, while keeping most of the crew intact would have been smart from Starfleet's perspective, and the writer's.
The Disco crew work superbly together, but they don't operate like a normal crew. But they know how each other works and how to get things done. But they no longer know how the galaxy works. What's a vorta? What's a talaxian? Wait, romulans are our friends now? Oh wait, I know these guys they-YIKES WHY DO THEY HATE US NOW??
Raynor knows how starfleet should work, and how the galaxy works, but he doesn't have the slightest idea how to get the best performance out of this crew.
But this is the only ship capable of ending The Burn, and reuniting the Federation.
The slow growth as Raynor comes around to understanding his new crew and ship, as well as Burnham and Saru slowly coming to trust him would have been a very interesting few seasons.
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Post by Philip Ayres on Apr 30, 2024 23:12:56 GMT
Callum Keith Rennie first came to my attention playing the second Ray in Due South, known to all & sundry as Ray II
In Battlestar Galactica he then played Cylon Number Two
Now he's playing a character called RAYnor??
The nods to his earlier role keep following him around!
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